a while back there was a discussion thread here about a small silvery Sony
HD FM receiver that was supposedly really good - so I bought one - I don't
like the user interface, but I thought I'd post about a design flaw - on my
unit at least, the audio quit intermittently, and a few days ago would quit
entirely in both channels - took it apart (that's a bit of a chore, to get
the circuit board out without destroying it) and found that the traces that
connect to the RCA jacks, center conductor (e.g. high side) had both broken
right where the through hole for the conductor is - very thin traces - they
should have been larger - I don't know if the cause was thermal or
mechanical stress, but whatever it was, there was no continuity from the
surface mount device in series with the output and the output itself - so
the solution was then straightforward - add a jumper wire from the device to
the output jack that would bypass the defective trace on each channel -

I used to think Sony meant quality (or at least good consumer quality) - I
doubt it now - this radio does get better reception than what it replaced,
but it's a real PITA to use and now with a design flaw like this....grrr

--
Bill -
www.wbnoble.com

On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 08:11:41 -0800, Bill Noble wrote
(in article <(E-Mail Removed)>):

> a while back there was a discussion thread here about a small silvery Sony
> HD FM receiver that was supposedly really good - so I bought one - I don't
> like the user interface, but I thought I'd post about a design flaw - on my
> unit at least, the audio quit intermittently, and a few days ago would quit
> entirely in both channels - took it apart (that's a bit of a chore, to get
> the circuit board out without destroying it) and found that the traces that
> connect to the RCA jacks, center conductor (e.g. high side) had both broken
> right where the through hole for the conductor is - very thin traces - they
> should have been larger - I don't know if the cause was thermal or
> mechanical stress, but whatever it was, there was no continuity from the
> surface mount device in series with the output and the output itself - so
> the solution was then straightforward - add a jumper wire from the device to
> the output jack that would bypass the defective trace on each channel -
>
> I used to think Sony meant quality (or at least good consumer quality) - I
> doubt it now - this radio does get better reception than what it replaced,
> but it's a real PITA to use and now with a design flaw like this....grrr
>
>

My experience with Sony equipment is that they are the "80%" company. Every
Sony product I have ever owned has been excellent - up to 80% of the "total
package". Something is always wrong or quirky. It's either a design decision
or an interface booboo, or a reliability problem. How about an HD camcorder
where the built-in microphones are omni-directional? The sound of the
operator breathing is louder than the audio that one is trying to capture
with the video! How about a gorgeous jewel of a portable stereo cassette
recorder. Dolby B, servo capstan for low wow-and flutter, etc. Comes with a
leather field case. Case has no window on it to allow operator to see LED
record indicators! How about a "special" rechargeable battery that when it
wore-out couldn't be replaced because Sony had stopped making them, and the
form factor was such that a third-party solution couldn't be found either!
How about a $4000 SACD player that refuses, every now and again, to output
any sound when playing a disc (CD or SACD)? Luckily, turning the unit off and
back on again has always solved the problem. How about a Sony HDTV that won't
allow the user any control over aspect ratio? If you play a DVD of an old 4:3
standard movie or TV program, the Sony TV assumes that because it's coming in
through the component video inputs that the program is high-definition and
therefore needs to be anamorphically stretched and does so and YOU can't
defeat it. How about a very expensive semi-pro reel-to-reel tape recorders
that makes excellent recordings, except that it goes through capstan motors
so quickly, that Sony quickly used up all the spares made? The recorder
became a useless lump less than 5-years after bought new.

I could go on. Needless to say, I don't buy Sony any more. I've had my fill
of unreliable, unfinished products from them.

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
"Bill Noble" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> a while back there was a discussion thread here about a small silvery Sony
> HD FM receiver that was supposedly really good - so I bought one - I don't
> like the user interface, but I thought I'd post about a design flaw - on my
> unit at least, the audio quit intermittently, and a few days ago would quit
> entirely in both channels - took it apart (that's a bit of a chore, to get
> the circuit board out without destroying it) and found that the traces that
> connect to the RCA jacks, center conductor (e.g. high side) had both broken
> right where the through hole for the conductor is - very thin traces - they
> should have been larger - I don't know if the cause was thermal or
> mechanical stress, but whatever it was, there was no continuity from the
> surface mount device in series with the output and the output itself - so
> the solution was then straightforward - add a jumper wire from the device to
> the output jack that would bypass the defective trace on each channel -
>
> I used to think Sony meant quality (or at least good consumer quality) - I
> doubt it now - this radio does get better reception than what it replaced,
> but it's a real PITA to use and now with a design flaw like this....grrr

For as long as I can recall (well over 20 years), Sony has had problems
with reliability of soldered joints on PCWBs.

You'd think they'd learn...

OTOH, I've gotten some nice pieces of gear for the price of inspecting
those boards for the telltale circular cracks, and redoing them.

Isaac

On Dec 28, 3:50=A0pm, isw <i...@witzend.com> wrote:
> In article <hh80vt01...@news2.newsguy.com>,
> =A0"Bill Noble" <nob...@nowhere.czm> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > a while back there was a discussion thread here about a small silvery S=
ony
> > HD FM receiver that was supposedly really good - so I bought one - I do=
n't
> > like the user interface, but I thought I'd post about a design flaw - o=
n my
> > unit at least, the audio quit intermittently, and a few days ago would =
quit
> > entirely in both channels - took it apart (that's a bit of a chore, to =
get
> > the circuit board out without destroying it) and found that the traces =
that
> > connect to the RCA jacks, center conductor (e.g. high side) had both br=
oken
> > right where the through hole for the conductor is - very thin traces - =
they
> > should have been larger - I don't know if the cause was thermal or
> > mechanical stress, but whatever it was, there was no continuity from th=
e
> > surface mount device in series with the output and the output itself - =
so
> > the solution was then straightforward - add a jumper wire from the devi=
ce to
> > the output jack that would bypass the defective trace on each channel -
>
> > I used to think Sony meant quality (or at least good consumer quality) =
- I
> > doubt it now - this radio does get better reception than what it replac=
ed,
> > but it's a real PITA to use and now with a design flaw like this....grr=
r
>
> For as long as I can recall (well over 20 years), Sony has had problems
> with reliability of soldered joints on PCWBs.


And now with lead free solder the problem has increased by several
times.

On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 04:15:27 -0800, sparky wrote
(in article <(E-Mail Removed)>):

> On Dec 28, 3:50=A0pm, isw <i...@witzend.com> wrote:
>> In article <hh80vt01...@news2.newsguy.com>,
>> =A0"Bill Noble" <nob...@nowhere.czm> wrote:

<snip for length>

>> For as long as I can recall (well over 20 years), Sony has had problems
>> with reliability of soldered joints on PCWBs.
>
>
> And now with lead free solder the problem has increased by several
> times.

I hadn't thought of that, but you're right. Lead-free solder is mostly tin
(>96%) with a about 3% of silver and a trace of copper. Without the lead, it
would tend to be more brittle than regular solder, and thus, much more likely
to crack.

Audio_Empire

"Audio Empire" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 04:15:27 -0800, sparky wrote
> (in article <(E-Mail Removed)>):
>
>> On Dec 28, 3:50=A0pm, isw <i...@witzend.com> wrote:
>>> In article <hh80vt01...@news2.newsguy.com>,
>>> =A0"Bill Noble" <nob...@nowhere.czm> wrote:
>
> <snip for length>
>
>>> For as long as I can recall (well over 20 years), Sony has had problems
>>> with reliability of soldered joints on PCWBs.
>>
>>
>> And now with lead free solder the problem has increased by several
>> times.
>
> I hadn't thought of that, but you're right. Lead-free solder is mostly tin
> (>96%) with a about 3% of silver and a trace of copper. Without the lead,
> it
> would tend to be more brittle than regular solder, and thus, much more
> likely
> to crack.
>
> Audio_Empire

you may be right, though I didn't notice an ROHS tag so it may or may not
have been lead free - but it wasn't the connection that failed, it was the
circuit trace itself that separated from the pad - I suspected a vibration
induced crack, but on further contemplation, I think it was due to the heat
of soldering the connection - whatever it was, the stupid thing broke, and I
had to fix it. (the good news is, that if anyone else on the NG has one,
they can be on the lookout for this problem and the fix is now known)

On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:20:26 -0800, Bill Noble wrote
(in article <(E-Mail Removed)>):

> "Audio Empire" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 04:15:27 -0800, sparky wrote
>> (in article <(E-Mail Removed)>):
>>
>>> On Dec 28, 3:50=A0pm, isw <i...@witzend.com> wrote:
>>>> In article <hh80vt01...@news2.newsguy.com>,
>>>> =A0"Bill Noble" <nob...@nowhere.czm> wrote:
>>
>> <snip for length>
>>
>>>> For as long as I can recall (well over 20 years), Sony has had problems
>>>> with reliability of soldered joints on PCWBs.
>>>
>>>
>>> And now with lead free solder the problem has increased by several
>>> times.
>>
>> I hadn't thought of that, but you're right. Lead-free solder is mostly tin
>> (>96%) with a about 3% of silver and a trace of copper. Without the lead,
>> it
>> would tend to be more brittle than regular solder, and thus, much more
>> likely
>> to crack.
>>
>> Audio_Empire
>
> you may be right, though I didn't notice an ROHS tag so it may or may not
> have been lead free - but it wasn't the connection that failed, it was the
> circuit trace itself that separated from the pad - I suspected a vibration
> induced crack, but on further contemplation, I think it was due to the heat
> of soldering the connection - whatever it was, the stupid thing broke, and I
> had to fix it. (the good news is, that if anyone else on the NG has one,
> they can be on the lookout for this problem and the fix is now known)

I'm sure that Sony, like everyone else on earth (seemingly) manufacturers in
China and that your tuner, was doubtless, made there. While China CAN make
some very good stuff, It depends upon the how diligent the client company is
about quality. I've bought good and bad Chinese stuff, and it's really
variable.

On Dec 31, 8:35=A0am, Audio Empire <audio_emp...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:20:26 -0800, Bill Noble wrote
> (in article <hhhfra...@news2.newsguy.com>):
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Audio Empire" <audio_emp...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> >> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 04:15:27 -0800, sparky wrote
> >> (in article <7pua6vFaq...@mid.individual.net>):
>
> >>> On Dec 28, 3:50=3DA0pm, isw <i...@witzend.com> wrote:
> >>>> In article <hh80vt01...@news2.newsguy.com>,
> >>>> =3DA0"Bill Noble" <nob...@nowhere.czm> wrote:
>
> >> <snip for length>
>
> >>>> For as long as I can recall (well over 20 years), Sony has had probl=
ems
> >>>> with reliability of soldered joints on PCWBs.
>
> >>> And now with =A0lead free solder the problem has increased by several
> >>> times.
>
> >> I hadn't thought of that, but you're right. Lead-free solder is mostly=
tin
> >> (>96%) with a about 3% of silver and a trace of copper. Without the le=
ad,
> >> it
> >> would tend to be more brittle than regular solder, and thus, much more
> >> likely
> >> to crack.
>
> >> Audio_Empire
>
> > you may be right, though I didn't notice an ROHS tag so it may or may n=
ot
> > have been lead free - but it wasn't the connection that failed, it was =
the
> > circuit trace itself that separated from the pad - I suspected a vibrat=
ion
> > induced crack, but on further contemplation, I think it was due to the =
heat
> > of soldering the connection - whatever it was, the stupid thing broke, =
and I
> > had to fix it. =A0 (the good news is, that if anyone else on the NG has=
one,
> > they can be on the lookout for this problem and the fix is now known)
>
> I'm sure that Sony, like everyone else on earth (seemingly) manufacturers=
in
> China and that your tuner, was doubtless, made there. While China CAN mak=
e
> some very good stuff, It depends upon the how diligent the client company=
is
> about quality. I've bought good and bad Chinese stuff, and it's really
> variable.

Just a couple of points. Being less pliable than leaded solders
doesn't result in lead free being more brittle. I've seen comparative
cross sections of solder joints after thousand of temperature
cycles. Some lead free joints had no cracks, in fact looked nearly
new, while leaded solder looked like the greenland icecap with
fractures everywhere.
The biggest problem with lead free solder is increase reflow temp
requirements that can cause poor quality printed wiring boards a
problem which often shows up as pad delamination from the board and a
fracture at the trace pad connection. Making matters worse, it would
not surprise me if the board in question was single sided and had no
through hole plating putting any mechanical stress from the connector
completely into the pad.

In any case, virtually every circuit card assembly made in China these
days is lead free. Asking a contract manufacturer to assemble with
leaded solder practically requires a dedicated line as they don't want
any cross contramination. It's now the exception rather than the rule
and comes with an added cost.

ScottW

On Dec 31 2009, 11:28=A0pm, ScottW <Scott...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 31, 8:35=3DA0am, Audio Empire <audio_emp...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:20:26 -0800, Bill Noble wrote
> > (in article <hhhfra...@news2.newsguy.com>):
>
> > > "Audio Empire" <audio_emp...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > >news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> > >> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 04:15:27 -0800, sparky wrote
> > >> (in article <7pua6vFaq...@mid.individual.net>):
>
> > >>> On Dec 28, 3:50=3D3DA0pm, isw <i...@witzend.com> wrote:
> > >>>> In article <hh80vt01...@news2.newsguy.com>,
> > >>>> =3D3DA0"Bill Noble" <nob...@nowhere.czm> wrote:
>
> > >> <snip for length>
>
> > >>>> For as long as I can recall (well over 20 years), Sony has had pro=
bl=3D
> ems
> > >>>> with reliability of soldered joints on PCWBs.
>
> > >>> And now with =3DA0lead free solder the problem has increased by sev=
eral
> > >>> times.
>
> > >> I hadn't thought of that, but you're right. Lead-free solder is most=
ly=3D
> =A0tin
> > >> (>96%) with a about 3% of silver and a trace of copper. Without the =
le=3D
> ad,
> > >> it
> > >> would tend to be more brittle than regular solder, and thus, much mo=
re
> > >> likely
> > >> to crack.
>
> > >> Audio_Empire
>
> > > you may be right, though I didn't notice an ROHS tag so it may or may=
n=3D
> ot
> > > have been lead free - but it wasn't the connection that failed, it wa=
s =3D
> the
> > > circuit trace itself that separated from the pad - I suspected a vibr=
at=3D
> ion
> > > induced crack, but on further contemplation, I think it was due to th=
e =3D
> heat
> > > of soldering the connection - whatever it was, the stupid thing broke=
, =3D
> and I
> > > had to fix it. =3DA0 (the good news is, that if anyone else on the NG=
has=3D
> =A0one,
> > > they can be on the lookout for this problem and the fix is now known)
>
> > I'm sure that Sony, like everyone else on earth (seemingly) manufacture=
rs=3D
> =A0in
> > China and that your tuner, was doubtless, made there. While China CAN m=
ak=3D
> e
> > some very good stuff, It depends upon the how diligent the client compa=
ny=3D
> =A0is
> > about quality. I've bought good and bad Chinese stuff, and it's really
> > variable.
>
> Just a couple of points. =A0Being less pliable than leaded solders
> doesn't result in lead free being more brittle. =A0I've seen comparative
> cross sections of solder joints after =A0thousand of temperature
> cycles. =A0Some lead free joints had no cracks, in fact looked nearly
> new, while leaded solder looked like the greenland icecap with
> fractures everywhere.
> The biggest problem with lead free solder is increase reflow temp
> requirements that can cause poor quality printed wiring boards a
> problem which often shows up as pad delamination from the board and a
> fracture at the trace pad connection. =A0Making matters worse, it would
> not surprise me if the board in question was single sided and had no
> through hole plating putting any mechanical stress from the connector
> completely into the pad.
>
> In any case, virtually every circuit card assembly made in China these
> days is lead free. =A0Asking a contract manufacturer to assemble with
> leaded solder practically requires a dedicated line as they don't want
> any cross contramination. =A0It's now the exception rather than the rule
> and comes with an added cost.
>
> ScottW- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Due to several reasons , equipment built with lead free solder is not
as reliable as conventional solder.

That is why medical and military equipment are exempt from the ban on
leaded solder.

On Jan 1, 9:35=A0am, sparky <sparky...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Dec 31 2009, 11:28=3DA0pm, ScottW <Scott...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 31, 8:35=3D3DA0am, Audio Empire <audio_emp...@comcast.net> wrote=
:
>
> > > On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:20:26 -0800, Bill Noble wrote
> > > (in article <hhhfra...@news2.newsguy.com>):
>
> > > > "Audio Empire" <audio_emp...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > > >news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> > > >> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 04:15:27 -0800, sparky wrote
> > > >> (in article <7pua6vFaq...@mid.individual.net>):
>
> > > >>> On Dec 28, 3:50=3D3D3DA0pm, isw <i...@witzend.com> wrote:
> > > >>>> In article <hh80vt01...@news2.newsguy.com>,
> > > >>>> =3D3D3DA0"Bill Noble" <nob...@nowhere.czm> wrote:
>
> > > >> <snip for length>
>
> > > >>>> For as long as I can recall (well over 20 years), Sony has had p=
ro=3D
> bl=3D3D
> > ems
> > > >>>> with reliability of soldered joints on PCWBs.
>
> > > >>> And now with =3D3DA0lead free solder the problem has increased by=
sev=3D
> eral
> > > >>> times.
>
> > > >> I hadn't thought of that, but you're right. Lead-free solder is mo=
st=3D
> ly=3D3D
> > =3DA0tin
> > > >> (>96%) with a about 3% of silver and a trace of copper. Without th=
e =3D
> le=3D3D
> > ad,
> > > >> it
> > > >> would tend to be more brittle than regular solder, and thus, much =
mo=3D
> re
> > > >> likely
> > > >> to crack.
>
> > > >> Audio_Empire
>
> > > > you may be right, though I didn't notice an ROHS tag so it may or m=
ay=3D
> =A0n=3D3D
> > ot
> > > > have been lead free - but it wasn't the connection that failed, it =
wa=3D
> s =3D3D
> > the
> > > > circuit trace itself that separated from the pad - I suspected a vi=
br=3D
> at=3D3D
> > ion
> > > > induced crack, but on further contemplation, I think it was due to =
th=3D
> e =3D3D
> > heat
> > > > of soldering the connection - whatever it was, the stupid thing bro=
ke=3D
> , =3D3D
> > and I
> > > > had to fix it. =3D3DA0 (the good news is, that if anyone else on th=
e NG=3D
> =A0has=3D3D
> > =3DA0one,
> > > > they can be on the lookout for this problem and the fix is now know=
n)
>
> > > I'm sure that Sony, like everyone else on earth (seemingly) manufactu=
re=3D
> rs=3D3D
> > =3DA0in
> > > China and that your tuner, was doubtless, made there. While China CAN=
m=3D
> ak=3D3D
> > e
> > > some very good stuff, It depends upon the how diligent the client com=
pa=3D
> ny=3D3D
> > =3DA0is
> > > about quality. I've bought good and bad Chinese stuff, and it's reall=
y
> > > variable.
>
> > Just a couple of points. =3DA0Being less pliable than leaded solders
> > doesn't result in lead free being more brittle. =3DA0I've seen comparat=
ive
> > cross sections of solder joints after =3DA0thousand of temperature
> > cycles. =3DA0Some lead free joints had no cracks, in fact looked nearly
> > new, while leaded solder looked like the greenland icecap with
> > fractures everywhere.
> > The biggest problem with lead free solder is increase reflow temp
> > requirements that can cause poor quality printed wiring boards a
> > problem which often shows up as pad delamination from the board and a
> > fracture at the trace pad connection. =3DA0Making matters worse, it wou=
ld
> > not surprise me if the board in question was single sided and had no
> > through hole plating putting any mechanical stress from the connector
> > completely into the pad.
>
> > In any case, virtually every circuit card assembly made in China these
> > days is lead free. =3DA0Asking a contract manufacturer to assemble with
> > leaded solder practically requires a dedicated line as they don't want
> > any cross contramination. =3DA0It's now the exception rather than the r=
ule
> > and comes with an added cost.
>
> > ScottW- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Due to several reasons , equipment built with lead free solder is not
> as reliable as conventional solder.
>
> That is why medical and military equipment are exempt from the ban on
> leaded solder.

They are exempt because the use of tin plated leads was banned from
use in mil and medical equipment due to the possibility of failure due
to tin whiskers.

This is a real issue for hi-reliability long life applications where
the components and materials used in assembly must undergo extensive
reliability testing before deployment.
Cat 8 and 9 (non-implanted) medical equipment is currently recommended
for inclusion in RoHS around 2012 specifically to allow manufacturers
time to qualify the new processes.

But this issue is relevant only for hi-rel assemblies where all other
causes of failure have been evaluated and efforts made to eliminate
them.
Commercial audio equipment certainly doesn't fall into these
categories. Failure due to tin whiskers is probably in the noise for
commercial audio products which have undergone no reliability testing
or screening.

ScottW