Hi Guys,

here is how to get a spot microphone just right if you again forgot measure
or record a clap near it:

1) know the order of magnitude of the required delay so that you start out
close to right

2) pan suitable main pair microphone fully left or right

3) pan spot mic fully right

4) get volume reasonably balanced

<this does it!>

5) adjust delay for proper center image of spot microphone sound source

</this does it!>

6) add a few milliseconds if spot microphone sound source protrudes when
properly mixed.

Note: adjustment sensitivity is single milliseconds. May for some be easier
when listening via headphones and for some be easier when listening via
loudspeakers, not fully verified what works best, try both!

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

"Peter Larsen" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:4f24358b$0$56773$(E-Mail Removed) k...
> Hi Guys,
>
> here is how to get a spot microphone just right if you again forgot
> measure or record a clap near it:
>
> 1) know the order of magnitude of the required delay so that you start out
> close to right
>
> 2) pan suitable main pair microphone fully left or right
>
> 3) pan spot mic fully right
>
> 4) get volume reasonably balanced
>
> <this does it!>
>
> 5) adjust delay for proper center image of spot microphone sound source
>
> </this does it!>
>
> 6) add a few milliseconds if spot microphone sound source protrudes when
> properly mixed.
>
> Note: adjustment sensitivity is single milliseconds. May for some be
> easier when listening via headphones and for some be easier when listening
> via loudspeakers, not fully verified what works best, try both!

This is one case where I prefer to use my eyes: in the DAW drag the spot mic
back (time delay) until it lines up with the main mics. You just have to
find a place in the music where the instrument being spotted is prominant
enough to see in the main waveform.

Sean

On 2012-01-28 (E-Mail Removed) said:
>here is how to get a spot microphone just right if you again forgot
>measure or record a clap near it:
>1) know the order of magnitude of the required delay so that you
>start out close to right

Excellent post, worthy of the archives, thanks! Especially
for those of us who aren't daw users.




Richard webb,

replace anything before at with elspider
warning: rediffmail.com is a spammer domain

On Jan 28, 3:01*pm, mcp6453 <mcp6...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Remind me why it is necessary to time align a spot microphone. I understand your
> procedure, and it makes a lot of sense, but I don't know when or why you would
> use it.

Google "comb filtering".

Peace,
Paul

>here is how to get a spot microphone just right if you again forgot measure
>or record a clap near it:
>
Pretty much how I work (Your description (3) was clearly truncated, though).

I prefer headphones and - as with manual focus on my camera lens - I find it
helpful to go deliberately 'beyond the good point' then come back from the
other side. I may even oscillate to and fro between the two points where a sound
is just discernibly early or late, and note those time values as a sanity check
(final chosen time should lie approx half way). And I regularly swap channels,
as a precaution against bias or a too vivid imagination ;-)
--
Tom McCreadie

Sean Conolly <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> "Peter Larsen" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:4f24358b$0$56773$(E-Mail Removed) k...
> > Hi Guys,
> >
> > here is how to get a spot microphone just right if you again forgot
> > measure or record a clap near it:
> >
> > 1) know the order of magnitude of the required delay so that you start out
> > close to right
> >
> > 2) pan suitable main pair microphone fully left or right
> >
> > 3) pan spot mic fully right
> >
> > 4) get volume reasonably balanced
> >
> > <this does it!>
> >
> > 5) adjust delay for proper center image of spot microphone sound source
> >
> > </this does it!>
> >
> > 6) add a few milliseconds if spot microphone sound source protrudes when
> > properly mixed.
> >
> > Note: adjustment sensitivity is single milliseconds. May for some be
> > easier when listening via headphones and for some be easier when listening
> > via loudspeakers, not fully verified what works best, try both!
>
> This is one case where I prefer to use my eyes: in the DAW drag the spot mic
> back (time delay) until it lines up with the main mics. You just have to
> find a place in the music where the instrument being spotted is prominant
> enough to see in the main waveform.
>
> Sean

Works when using a DAW, but not for situations where one will be
capturing a stereo mix. It can be helpful in the latter setting to get
it as right as possible from the gitgo.

When in the DAW, I will use my eyes to get close, and then close my eyes
to listen until I lke it. Sometimes I will get down to nudging by the
sample.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

"PStamler" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:737a0479-3316-4cd9-90ff-(E-Mail Removed)...
On Jan 28, 3:01 pm, mcp6453 <mcp6...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Remind me why it is necessary to time align a spot microphone. I
> understand your
> procedure, and it makes a lot of sense, but I don't know when or why you
> would
> use it.

Google "comb filtering".

Peace,
Paul

And also Phase Coherence, which is the more important reason IMHO.

Sean

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 18:50:57 +0100, "Peter Larsen"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Hi Guys,
>
>here is how to get a spot microphone just right if you again forgot measure
>or record a clap near it:
>
>1) know the order of magnitude of the required delay so that you start out
>close to right
>
>2) pan suitable main pair microphone fully left or right
>
>3) pan spot mic fully right
>
>4) get volume reasonably balanced
>
><this does it!>
>
>5) adjust delay for proper center image of spot microphone sound source
>
></this does it!>
>
>6) add a few milliseconds if spot microphone sound source protrudes when
>properly mixed.
>
>Note: adjustment sensitivity is single milliseconds. May for some be easier
>when listening via headphones and for some be easier when listening via
>loudspeakers, not fully verified what works best, try both!
>
> Kind regards
>
> Peter Larsen
>
>
>
>

I have two ways.

The first way is to stand where the spot-miked instrumentalist will be
and clap my hands. Alignment is simple.

The second is to do the job properly and measure the paths to the two
mikes. The speed of sound (just over 340 m/sec) then gives the delay
needed on the spot mike.

d

Frank Stearns wrote:

> Not sure I follow... Step 2: you mean, just one of the main pair
> mics? What flavor of stereo pair are we talking about? AB? ORTF? NOS?
> XY? MS? (etc)

I used just the one on that side - ie. the right one and panned the spot mic
left, dunno which to choose with MS, it was AB, 50 centimeters between
4006's, piano mic a single KSM 141. I ended up redoing it because it didn't
integrate properly when listening to the final 44.1-16 and moved the KSM 24
milliseconds instead of 22, so I don't really know.

> Step 3: should the spot pan be opposite pan of the selected main pair
> mic (assuming you're just using one from the main pair).

> If I understand it correctly I like the approach, but anticipate some
> little gotchas with this method. Want to make sure I fully understand
> it and then try it.

My R44 gave me the idea when recording a piano quartet, there's no way to
pan on it and the time difference when listening with the spot mic on
channel 3 was very disturbing, but hearing it like that made it very easy to
move it around at the "far end" of the piano to get its tonal balance to
match the 4006 pair, not mine. The Fostex MR8-HD has better ergonomics, but
the R44 has more bits and more portability. That Fostex remains a
surprisingly bag for audio at a very nice price.

> I find millisecond steps can be too large; single sample steps can be
> better. Quite often the ideal delay is only 3 samples wide (44.1K);
> go one sample out on either side and you lose the good sound.

! - certainly a point confirming the feel I'm slowly getting, one of
preferably using an ORTF type setup if spot(s) will be required in case of
AB. This also because that quartet in two other rooms is "just right" on my
C42's. It ended up being "too hi-fi" ....

! - also a point confirming my feel that using just one spot mic on piano is
less problems than using two. Comments appreciated.

> Thanks for the idea; will be interested in clarifications.

I found it a time-saver. Now if onlý I had a big round button labed "time"
on the arm-rest for it - some computing is best done on a real chair sitting
at a real desk, but to me the best daw'ïng is via remote operating the daw
from an armchair using a laptop.

To those suggesting looking at the waveform: yes ... but there's nothing
obvious to look at with such a recording. I have a supersonic range finder
that uses a ""+20 kHz click"" - firing it near the spot could in theory be a
good method, but my ears always hurt after using it and it would certainly
annoy the practicing musicians.

> Frank
> Mobile Audio

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

mcp6453 wrote:

> Remind me why it is necessary to time align a spot microphone. I
> understand your procedure, and it makes a lot of sense, but I don't
> know when or why you would use it.

When actually recording stereo instead of building it from tracks. That
said, I rapidly ended up doing temporal alignment to get layering right when
practicing on the tracks from http://raw-tracks.com.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen