Hi to all,

Recently, a friend was talking about High End system which supposedly
make the loudspeakers disappear. While driving back I realized that it
is much more easier to achieve the act of making speakers disappearing
in a car then our room. The front sound from my car speakers appear to
come from the dashboard/bonnet even though the speakers are located
somewhere below my knee level on my right and left door and each
speakers can't see each other because they were blocked by the car
center components. But they project the sound beautiful to my front
which makes them appear to come from the windscreen/dashboard/bonnet
in front of me.

So I went home pulled 4 x 4ft Roxul rock wool fiber (4 in thick) and
placed it between the loudspeakers to see what's the effect it going
be. It was extending 2 feet front and back from the center of spearing
the left and right speakers completely. Sitting position is about 8.5
ft. I hope you guys give your opinion what the rock wool is going to
do the sound before I post my observation. I know the golden rule is
there shouldn't be anything in between loudspeakers but in this case
the roxul wool is 4 in thick and have good absorption over wide range
of frequencies.

Thanks

ST

ST wrote:
> Hi to all,
>
> Recently, a friend was talking about High End system which supposedly
> make the loudspeakers disappear. While driving back I realized that it
> is much more easier to achieve the act of making speakers disappearing
> in a car then our room. The front sound from my car speakers appear to
> come from the dashboard/bonnet even though the speakers are located
> somewhere below my knee level on my right and left door and each
> speakers can't see each other because they were blocked by the car
> center components. But they project the sound beautiful to my front
> which makes them appear to come from the windscreen/dashboard/bonnet
> in front of me.

I'd bet good money that if you looked on the top of the dash,
you'd find two small tweeters firing up and reflecting off the
windshield. That's why you're localizing the sound to there
and not to the speakers in the doors. The high frequencies
of those tweeters is triggering your aural localization, and
overwhelming the localization from the in-door speakers.

Your proposed experiment with the absorber between the speakers
is likely to fail, since the effect you seek (what you hear
in your car) is not anything like what you think it is.


--
+--------------------------------+
+ Dick Pierce |
+ Professional Audio Development |
+--------------------------------+

On Aug 2, 4:55*am, Dick Pierce <dpie...@cartchunk.org> wrote:
> ST wrote:
> > Hi to all,
>
> > Recently, a friend was talking about High End system which supposedly
> > make the loudspeakers disappear. While driving back I realized that it
> > is much more easier to achieve the act of making speakers disappearing
> > in a car then our room. The front sound from my car speakers appear to
> > come from the dashboard/bonnet even though the speakers are located
> > somewhere below my knee level on my right and left door and each
> > speakers can't see each other because they were blocked by the car
> > center components. But they project the sound beautiful to my front
> > which makes them appear to come from the windscreen/dashboard/bonnet
> > in front of me.
>
> I'd bet good money that if you looked on the top of the dash,
> you'd find two small tweeters firing up and reflecting off the
> windshield. That's why you're localizing the sound to there
> and not to the speakers in the doors. The high frequencies
> of those tweeters is triggering your aural localization, and
> overwhelming the localization from the in-door speakers.
>
> Your proposed experiment with the absorber between the speakers
> is likely to fail, since the effect you seek (what you hear
> in your car) is not anything like what you think it is.
>
> --
> +--------------------------------+
> + * * * * Dick Pierce * * * * * *|
> + Professional Audio Development |
> +--------------------------------+

Hi,

Yes, the two tweeters are on the dashboard but even with them turned
off the sound is still coming from the front though bit lower and
obviously lacking clarity. You are still unable to pin point where the
speakers located.

Regarding my experiment -

I used Roger Waters -Amused to Death, Track 8 - Too much rope.

Rgds,
ST

On Aug 2, 12:33*am, ST <st.chel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 2, 4:55*am, Dick Pierce <dpie...@cartchunk.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > ST wrote:
> > > Hi to all,
>
> > > Recently, a friend was talking about High End system which supposedly
> > > make the loudspeakers disappear. While driving back I realized that it
> > > is much more easier to achieve the act of making speakers disappearing
> > > in a car then our room. The front sound from my car speakers appear to
> > > come from the dashboard/bonnet even though the speakers are located
> > > somewhere below my knee level on my right and left door and each
> > > speakers can't see each other because they were blocked by the car
> > > center components. But they project the sound beautiful to my front
> > > which makes them appear to come from the windscreen/dashboard/bonnet
> > > in front of me.
>
> > I'd bet good money that if you looked on the top of the dash,
> > you'd find two small tweeters firing up and reflecting off the
> > windshield. That's why you're localizing the sound to there
> > and not to the speakers in the doors. The high frequencies
> > of those tweeters is triggering your aural localization, and
> > overwhelming the localization from the in-door speakers.
>
> > Your proposed experiment with the absorber between the speakers
> > is likely to fail, since the effect you seek (what you hear
> > in your car) is not anything like what you think it is.
>
> > --
> > +--------------------------------+
> > + * * * * Dick Pierce * * * * * *|
> > + Professional Audio Development |
> > +--------------------------------+
>
> Hi,
>
> Yes, the two tweeters are on the dashboard but even with them turned
> off the sound is still coming from the front though bit lower and
> obviously lacking clarity. You are still unable to pin point where the
> speakers located.
>
> Regarding my experiment -
>
> I used Roger Waters -Amused to Death, Track 8 - Too much rope.

Since the proximity and relections with respect to your listening
room's boundaries, as well as its volume are nothing like you car's,
isn't your experiment somewhat meaningless regardless of its outcome?

Norman

On Aug 2, 11:23*pm, Dick Pierce <dpie...@cartchunk.org> wrote:
> ST wrote:
> > On Aug 2, 4:55 am, Dick Pierce <dpie...@cartchunk.org> wrote:
> >>ST wrote:
> >>>Recently, a friend was talking about High End system which supposedly
> >>>make the loudspeakers disappear. While driving back I realized that it
> >>>is much more easier to achieve the act of making speakers disappearing
> >>>in a car then our room. The front sound from my car speakers appear to
> >>>come from the dashboard/bonnet even though the speakers are located
> >>>somewhere below my knee level on my right and left door and each
> >>>speakers can't see each other because they were blocked by the car
> >>>center components. But they project the sound beautiful to my front
> >>>which makes them appear to come from the windscreen/dashboard/bonnet
> >>>in front of me.
>
> >>I'd bet good money that if you looked on the top of the dash,
> >>you'd find two small tweeters firing up and reflecting off the
> >>windshield. That's why you're localizing the sound to there
> >>and not to the speakers in the doors. The high frequencies
> >>of those tweeters is triggering your aural localization, and
> >>overwhelming the localization from the in-door speakers.
>
> > Yes, the two tweeters are on the dashboard but even with them turned
> > off the sound is still coming from the front though bit lower and
> > obviously lacking clarity. You are still unable to pin point where the
> > speakers located.
>
> And how did you "turn the tweeters off?"
>
> --
> +--------------------------------+
> + * * * * Dick Pierce * * * * * *|
> + Professional Audio Development |
> +--------------------------------+

>From source to electronic crossover and then split to mid, sub and
tweeter Amp. You can turn off at crossover or at the Tweeter's Amp.

I wouldn't say meaningless but impractical, yes. No one wants to see a
4 inch panel protruding two feet to the front in the center of the
room.

I think it helps for better separation and localisation of sound . I
know Track 8 the sleigh comes from my BACK and goes to left and right
with consistent volume. Previously it was coming in front of me as
described by http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue18/waters.htm .

It was just an experiment and I thought people with acoustic
engineering, sound recording engineers or similar background may want
to give their input. I am hearing a difference and for now I am
confining to Track 8 -Too much Rope.

Regards,
ST





On Aug 3, 12:14*am, Norman Schwartz <n...@optonline.net> wrote:
> On Aug 2, 12:33*am, ST <st.chel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 2, 4:55*am, Dick Pierce <dpie...@cartchunk.org> wrote:
>
> > > ST wrote:
> > > > Hi to all,
>
> > > > Recently, a friend was talking about High End system which supposedly
> > > > make the loudspeakers disappear. While driving back I realized that it
> > > > is much more easier to achieve the act of making speakers disappearing
> > > > in a car then our room. The front sound from my car speakers appear to
> > > > come from the dashboard/bonnet even though the speakers are located
> > > > somewhere below my knee level on my right and left door and each
> > > > speakers can't see each other because they were blocked by the car
> > > > center components. But they project the sound beautiful to my front
> > > > which makes them appear to come from the windscreen/dashboard/bonnet
> > > > in front of me.
>
> > > I'd bet good money that if you looked on the top of the dash,
> > > you'd find two small tweeters firing up and reflecting off the
> > > windshield. That's why you're localizing the sound to there
> > > and not to the speakers in the doors. The high frequencies
> > > of those tweeters is triggering your aural localization, and
> > > overwhelming the localization from the in-door speakers.
>
> > > Your proposed experiment with the absorber between the speakers
> > > is likely to fail, since the effect you seek (what you hear
> > > in your car) is not anything like what you think it is.
>
> > > --
> > > +--------------------------------+
> > > + * * * * Dick Pierce * * * * * *|
> > > + Professional Audio Development |
> > > +--------------------------------+
>
> > Hi,
>
> > Yes, the two tweeters are on the dashboard but even with them turned
> > off the sound is still coming from the front though bit lower and
> > obviously lacking clarity. You are still unable to pin point where the
> > speakers located.
>
> > Regarding my experiment -
>
> > I used Roger Waters -Amused to Death, Track 8 - Too much rope.
>
> Since the proximity and relections with respect to your listening
> room's boundaries, as well as its *volume are nothing like you car's,
> isn't your experiment somewhat meaningless regardless of its outcome?
>
> Norman

On Aug 3, 6:35*pm, ST <st.chel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I wouldn't say meaningless but impractical, yes. No one wants to see a
> 4 inch panel protruding two feet to the front in the center of the
> room.
>
> I think it helps for better separation and localisation of sound . I
> know Track 8 the sleigh comes from my BACK and goes to left and right
> with consistent volume. Previously it was coming in front of me as
> described byhttp://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue18/waters.htm.
>
> It was just an experiment and I thought people with acoustic
> engineering, sound recording engineers or similar background may want
> to give their input. I am hearing a difference and for now I am
> confining to Track 8 -Too much Rope.
>
> Regards,
> ST
>
> On Aug 3, 12:14*am, Norman Schwartz <n...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 2, 12:33*am, ST <st.chel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 2, 4:55*am, Dick Pierce <dpie...@cartchunk.org> wrote:
>
> > > > ST wrote:
> > > > > Hi to all,
>
> > > > > Recently, a friend was talking about High End system which supposedly
> > > > > make the loudspeakers disappear. While driving back I realized that it
> > > > > is much more easier to achieve the act of making speakers disappearing
> > > > > in a car then our room. The front sound from my car speakers appear to
> > > > > come from the dashboard/bonnet even though the speakers are located
> > > > > somewhere below my knee level on my right and left door and each
> > > > > speakers can't see each other because they were blocked by the car
> > > > > center components. But they project the sound beautiful to my front
> > > > > which makes them appear to come from the windscreen/dashboard/bonnet
> > > > > in front of me.
>
> > > > I'd bet good money that if you looked on the top of the dash,
> > > > you'd find two small tweeters firing up and reflecting off the
> > > > windshield. That's why you're localizing the sound to there
> > > > and not to the speakers in the doors. The high frequencies
> > > > of those tweeters is triggering your aural localization, and
> > > > overwhelming the localization from the in-door speakers.
>
> > > > Your proposed experiment with the absorber between the speakers
> > > > is likely to fail, since the effect you seek (what you hear
> > > > in your car) is not anything like what you think it is.
>
> > > > --
> > > > +--------------------------------+
> > > > + * * * * Dick Pierce * * * * * *|
> > > > + Professional Audio Development |
> > > > +--------------------------------+
>
> > > Hi,
>
> > > Yes, the two tweeters are on the dashboard but even with them turned
> > > off the sound is still coming from the front though bit lower and
> > > obviously lacking clarity. You are still unable to pin point where the
> > > speakers located.
>
> > > Regarding my experiment -
>
> > > I used Roger Waters -Amused to Death, Track 8 - Too much rope.
>
> > Since the proximity and relections with respect to your listening
> > room's boundaries, as well as its *volume are nothing like you car's,
> > isn't your experiment somewhat meaningless regardless of its outcome?
>
> > Norman

Correction - I meant to say it comes closer to face right from left
much FORWARD from the speaker with consistent volume. (Ignore - I
know Track 8 the sleigh comes from my BACK and goes to left and right
with consistent volume.

Sorry, Thanks

ST wrote:
>Norman Schwartz wrote:
>>Since the proximity and relections with respect to your listening
>>room's boundaries, as well as its volume are nothing like you car's,
>>isn't your experiment somewhat meaningless regardless of its outcome?
> I wouldn't say meaningless but impractical, yes.

No, meaningless would be the appropriate word here.
You're changing one variable concisouly and ignoring
many, many other variables, any one of which is probably
going to have a MUCH bigger influence than the one you
are changing. You have a WILDLY different acoustic
environment in eahc case, and you say that the only
thing that's constant is the track you're listening to
and you ears, and every acoustic expert is quite familiar
with how consistently inconstant any given pair of ears
is.

A not-so-far-fetched analogy is to assume that since
the imaging you get from headphones is very different
than from speakers, you can get the speakers to image
like headphones by stiocking a skull in between them.

--
+--------------------------------+
+ Dick Pierce |
+ Professional Audio Development |
+--------------------------------+

Please forgive the top-posting. Please note the interpolations:

On Aug 1, 10:34*am, ST <st.chel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi to all,
>
> Recently, a friend was talking about High End system which supposedly
> make the loudspeakers disappear. While driving back I realized that it
> is much more easier to achieve the act of making speakers disappearing
> in a car then our room. The front sound from my car speakers appear to
> come from the dashboard/bonnet even though the speakers are located
> somewhere below my knee level on my right and left door and each
> speakers can't see each other because they were blocked by the car
> center components. But they project the sound beautiful to my front
> which makes them appear to come from the windscreen/dashboard/bonnet
> in front of me.

Well - consider how noisy an environment your car is most of the time.
Between wind, engine, transmission, heating and cooling, tire-noise,
vibration and so forth - even in a Rolls-Royce - a vehicle is rife
with 'background' noise at the very least. Then, consider the volume -
the entire cockpit in your vehicle is smaller than most bathrooms and
many closets. Then, consider speaker placement - usually more-than-two
in any but the most basic systems - and as many as eight or ten even
in modest factory systems. So with a lot of speaker-drivers in a very
small space with lots of ambient noise, it is quite likely that you
may not be able to pick out any individual speaker from that lot.

Speakers don't need to 'see' each other. Nor do you need to 'see'
them. There are issues with speaker grills or grill cloth and acoustic
transparency, but those are well understood and taken into account.

> So I went home pulled 4 x 4ft *Roxul rock wool fiber (4 in thick) and
> placed it between the loudspeakers to see what's the effect it going
> be.

Why you would expose yourself to that material and for that reason
passeth understanding. But apart from the wisdom of introducing rock-
wool into your living environment without protection, all it will do
in any case is cut off the highs. It will do nothing below about 1,000
hz or so, depending on its density.

> It was extending 2 feet front and back from the center of spearing
> the left and right speakers completely. Sitting position is about 8.5
> ft.

Correct me if I am wrong but as I understand what you are writing, the
insulation goes from floor-to-ceiling, and is about 5 feet wide,
assuming the speakers are about 12" deep, and the speakers themselves
are at least two feet from the wall. (Aside: If these are conventional
speakers with conventional drivers and not planars or other
unconventional designs this sort of placement could be problematic).

>I hope you guys give your opinion what the rock wool is going to
> do the sound before I post my observation. I know the golden rule is
> there shouldn't be anything in between loudspeakers but in this case
> the roxul wool is 4 in thick and have good absorption over wide range
> of frequencies.

Depending on the design of your speakers, at best it will do very
little - certainly not a whole lot with the low end, and the only
conceivable effect it could have would be on the high end. At worst,
you will get the effect of having your speakers far too far apart -
essentially two point-sources vs. a blend in the middle with spatial
information properly spread across them.

Opinion: Good speakers DO disappear. If they are properly placed and
properly amplified (sufficient power that they do not clip at a
meaningful volume) and with good signal - sitting in the general
'sweet spot' with your eyes closed, you should not be able to point
out either speaker exactly. Individual instruments or voices, with
well-recorded souces, certainly. But the speakers, not so much. Note
also that the better the speakers, the 'larger' that sweet spot will
be.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

On Aug 1, 10:34*am, ST <st.chel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi to all,
>
> Recently, a friend was talking about High End system which supposedly
> make the loudspeakers disappear. While driving back I realized that it
> is much more easier to achieve the act of making speakers disappearing
> in a car then our room. The front sound from my car speakers appear to
> come from the dashboard/bonnet even though the speakers are located
> somewhere below my knee level on my right and left door and each
> speakers can't see each other because they were blocked by the car
> center components. But they project the sound beautiful to my front
> which makes them appear to come from the windscreen/dashboard/bonnet
> in front of me.
>
> So I went home pulled 4 x 4ft *Roxul rock wool fiber (4 in thick) and
> placed it between the loudspeakers to see what's the effect it going
> be. It was extending 2 feet front and back from the center of spearing
> the left and right speakers completely. Sitting position is about 8.5
> ft. I hope you guys give your opinion what the rock wool is going to
> do the sound before I post my observation. I know the golden rule is
> there shouldn't be anything in between loudspeakers but in this case
> the roxul wool is 4 in thick and have good absorption over wide range
> of frequencies.
>
> Thanks

I don't know what you hear, but adding acoustic padding inside a
vehicle is something that is needed and few do.

greg