"Arny Krueger" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> "Harry Lavo" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)
>
>> "Arny Krueger" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>
>>> snip opinion to get to factual basis<
>
>>> One irony is that not too long ago, Vinyl was more like
>>> 1% of the total market. Now its 0.37%. Where I come
>>> from, that's a 63% loss of market share.
>
>>> Even though the actual numbers of product sold go up,
>>> the market share appears to be continuing to all off a
>>> cliff.
>
>> Uh, Arny....CD and total market sales are falling; LP
>> sales are rising. You don't have to be a genius at math
>> to know that means that LP's share is increasing.
>
> Harry, you haven't dealt with the fact that Vinyl's market share was far
> more, about 3 times more just a few years ago. OK, maybe the sales of
> vinyl
> went up in the past statistical period, compared to the previous one. That
> doesn't make it a meaningful trend.
>
> Back a couple-3-4 years back when vinyl's market share was around 1% I
> suggested that it might due to media being sold to dance clubs and DJs for
> scratching. Interestingly enough, a digital alternative to mechanical
> scratching was developed, and now vinyl's market share is more like 0.37%.
>
> Hmmmm.

Hmmm, please read Scotts post corraborating the rise in vinyl sales over
this decade. You are getting yourself further and further out on a bias
limb. The main vinyl aversion around here seems to be yours.

> That begs the question of why vinyl's sales went up just lately. The most
> recent relevant technological advance was the under-$200 USB turntable.
> Think that might be it - people picking up some new media to see what
> their
> newly-hyped cheap LP playback hardware actually sounds like?

Don't be rediculous....people without vinyl don't buy a turntable (even a
cheap one) and THEN buy something to play on it, if they don't have
intention to use it. No the cheap turntables are for older folks like you
and I who are not into quality sound particularly, and just want something
to get their vinyl onto a computer as you've been urging them to do. The
kids are buying direct-drives and lower end belt drives in order to play
their vinyl. They might copy it onto a cd for the car or an iPod for
personal use, but they often play the vinyl at home.

And you are completely overlooking the substantial sales of
medium-to-higher-priced turntables and sales of $25-35 per disk premium
vinyl that is selling to reasonably well-heeled audio enthusiasts.

"Harry Lavo" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)

> That's a reasonable position, Dick. All I am saying she
> is well positioned to judge as opposed to many other of
> us. I just found it another in an interesting string of
> antecdotes re: the pickup in this market over the last
> five or so years. She struck me as a reasonably
> well-positioned source.

I question the logic. The management of a single retail store or a small
retail chain is basically just one small data point.

Furthermore, anybody whose making money selling a certain kind of product is
obviously biased.

Let's face it, only a miniscule percentage of all retailers of media or
audio electronics even bother with vinyl any more.

When you see a news story about LPs, ask yourself - would this be news if it
wasn't about LPs? What makes it news is how improbable it is, all other
things considered.


> Not directly related, but I have a young son (age 25) who
> is a musician and has his own band, and he was telling me
> of the vinyl resurgence five years ago (we never talked
> about it, so he didn't know that I already knew something
> about it although he did know I still had a lot of
> records, many of which I played from time to time). He
> asked me at that time for a turntable, and as a result,
> received a Dual 704 with Shure cartridge that I had
> bought and was planning to resell on ebay.

Letsee, like father, like son?

> My daughter
> (age 29) came in one day about two years ago with a bag
> containing seven used LP's that she had bought....mostly
> early '70's rock. She currently does not have her own
> apartment, so her stereo is in storage. She asked me to
> transfer them to CD so she could play them in her car.

That makes sense, and just shows how unusable LPs are by modern standards.

> Her comment: I wish cars still came with cassette
> decks...I liked them better.

She obviously never saw the many cassettes, twisted tape hanging out like a
long skinny banner, that ended up on the sides of many a busy road, thrown
there in fits of absolute frustration.

"Arny Krueger" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> "Harry Lavo" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)
>
>> That's a reasonable position, Dick. All I am saying she
>> is well positioned to judge as opposed to many other of
>> us. I just found it another in an interesting string of
>> antecdotes re: the pickup in this market over the last
>> five or so years. She struck me as a reasonably
>> well-positioned source.
>
> I question the logic. The management of a single retail store or a small
> retail chain is basically just one small data point.

Agreed to the single point, but this does happen to be the largest music
retailer in NYC.....not exactly podunk, Iowa.

> Furthermore, anybody whose making money selling a certain kind of product
> is
> obviously biased.

J&R sells everything electronic, everything music, everything photo,
everything kitchen, every.....man, that's a lot of biases!


> Let's face it, only a miniscule percentage of all retailers of media or
> audio electronics even bother with vinyl any more.

More and more every year...even Barnes and Noble, about as conservative a
music retailer as there is, is experimenting. And I daresay there are many
more doing so today than ten years ago.

> When you see a news story about LPs, ask yourself - would this be news if
> it
> wasn't about LPs? What makes it news is how improbable it is, all other
> things considered.

Certainly is improbably....after all, "Perfect Sound Forever" was supposed
to do in vinyl. It was buried by the press and by engineering types like
yourself....and flowers planted on it. Funny thing happened though. The
ground heaved, and up she came again.....not quite her old self, but living
and breathing. What's not to marvel over/do a story about?

>
>> Not directly related, but I have a young son (age 25) who
>> is a musician and has his own band, and he was telling me
>> of the vinyl resurgence five years ago (we never talked
>> about it, so he didn't know that I already knew something
>> about it although he did know I still had a lot of
>> records, many of which I played from time to time). He
>> asked me at that time for a turntable, and as a result,
>> received a Dual 704 with Shure cartridge that I had
>> bought and was planning to resell on ebay.
>
> Letsee, like father, like son?

Quite possibly, but the impetus seemed to come from a musician friend who
had started amassing his own vinyl collection. He had never shown much
interest in my vinyl or record playing gear.


>> My daughter
>> (age 29) came in one day about two years ago with a bag
>> containing seven used LP's that she had bought....mostly
>> early '70's rock. She currently does not have her own
>> apartment, so her stereo is in storage. She asked me to
>> transfer them to CD so she could play them in her car.
>
> That makes sense, and just shows how unusable LPs are by modern standards.

Do you understand the definition of "non-sequitor"?

>
>> Her comment: I wish cars still came with cassette
>> decks...I liked them better.
>
> She obviously never saw the many cassettes, twisted tape hanging out like
> a
> long skinny banner, that ended up on the sides of many a busy road, thrown
> there in fits of absolute frustration.

Neither have I, and I lived through the cassette period. She simply
expressed a preference....I didn't grill her to find out why. I assumed
nostalgia for when she was a little girl and used to bring her cassettes
along on trips. But who knows, maybe she's just another budding, totally
irrational audiophile, out to annoy you.

Harry Lavo wrote:
> "Arny Krueger" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>> "Harry Lavo" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:(E-Mail Removed)

<snip>

>> Let's face it, only a miniscule percentage of all retailers of media or
>> audio electronics even bother with vinyl any more.
>
> More and more every year...even Barnes and Noble, about as conservative a
> music retailer as there is, is experimenting. And I daresay there are many
> more doing so today than ten years ago.

Not around here they (meaning the *many* dealers) aren't (Phoenix area).
I can say that LP's are a much higher *percentage* of the music
available for sale than at any time in recent memory. An artifact of a
small resurgence in vinyl, and primarily a massive decrease in the
numbers and variety of CD's being stocked. Barnes & Noble may be
experimenting with vinyl on-line, but I don't look for any in the stores
here. Borders no longer even sells music - in any format - here in the
Phoenix area. They dumped the lot this year; it's on-line only now.


>> When you see a news story about LPs, ask yourself - would this be news if
>> it
>> wasn't about LPs? What makes it news is how improbable it is, all other
>> things considered.
>
> Certainly is improbably....after all, "Perfect Sound Forever" was supposed
> to do in vinyl.

And, it basically did. Just as streaming and digital downloads (or
their as yet undeveloped successors) will eventually do in CD. But, as
with riding horses, driving Model T's or Stanley Steamers, there will
likely always be niche hobbyist markets for both vinyl and CD. As long
as that niche is commercially viable for a few fringe players, the media
will continue to be available. But, they will, nonetheless, be legacy
technologies relegated to niche constituencies.

In fact, the apparently unavoidable slide from brick and mortar
storefront to non-stocking e-tailers is likely vinyl's best friend (and
will be CD's as well) since it creates availability, albeit not very
timely, without a retailer having to stock slow/no moving inventory.


> It was buried by the press and by engineering types like
> yourself....and flowers planted on it. Funny thing happened though. The
> ground heaved, and up she came again.....not quite her old self, but living
> and breathing. What's not to marvel over/do a story about?

The point is, it's not much of a story IMO. There are a number of
factors that can influence such minor upticks in vinyl sales (e.g.
e-tailing as mentioned previously). Good vinyl playback equipment is not
cheap, so having a listener base that has invested heavily in equipment
(and that has the concomitant disposable income) and likes vinyl sound
supplies a stable buyer base. As more titles are made available - or
higher quality pressings / recordings/ etc. - that same base will likely
buy more, stimulating more variety of production. That is not, however,
sustainable as a method of long term growth unless the base is increased
significantly. However, having that stable base, when even a modest
"fad" of younger folks getting into vinyl occurs (of which I have
personally met exactly *none*) will appear as significant.

I mean, look at the album numbers from 2007-2008:

LP's - increased by 1.6M units - which is well more than double;
CD's - decreased by 126.4M units
Downloads - increased by 14.4M units

The *story*, IMO, is that overall album sales dropped by 108.6M units!

And the uptick in downloads (excluding singles, and DVDs) is almost 9
times the increase in LP's. And that 'massive' increase in LP's is still
only 0.36% of the total sales (for a total LP sales of 0.66%). I mean
let's face it, when the overall album market (comprised of 3 basic media
types) drops 20%, a <0.4% relative change in one medium is statistically
insignificant.

<snip>

>> She obviously never saw the many cassettes, twisted tape hanging out like
>> a
>> long skinny banner, that ended up on the sides of many a busy road, thrown
>> there in fits of absolute frustration.
>
> Neither have I, and I lived through the cassette period.

Wow - you obviously didn't get out much then. They were rather
ubiquitous in the 70's around these parts.

Keith

On Dec 8, 2:50=A0pm, "Harry Lavo" <hl...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> The Times reporter didn't say it wasn't a fad -- the ower of J&R said it
> wasn't a fad. =A0Who's better to judge....you, or she who talks to and ca=
ters
> to her customers?

Check again, Harry. The sentence has neither quotes nor attribution.
It's the reporter's words.

Harry Lavo wrote:
> "Arny Krueger" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>
>>"Harry Lavo" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>news:(E-Mail Removed)
>>
>>
>>>That's a reasonable position, Dick. All I am saying she
>>>is well positioned to judge as opposed to many other of
>>>us. I just found it another in an interesting string of
>>>antecdotes re: the pickup in this market over the last
>>>five or so years. She struck me as a reasonably
>>>well-positioned source.
>>
>>I question the logic. The management of a single retail store or a small
>>retail chain is basically just one small data point.
>
> Agreed to the single point, but this does happen to be the largest music
> retailer in NYC.....not exactly podunk, Iowa.

But it's but one data point, and missing data at that.

> J&R sells everything electronic, everything music, everything photo,
> everything kitchen, every.....man,

So? How is that relevant?

>that's a lot of biases!

Yes, it is. Are we to think that people are incapable of holding
more than a small handful of biases and opinions at once? Indeed,
I might even suggest that people are quite capably of not only
holding a multitude of biases simultaneously, but that many of
them may contradict and conflict, as irrational as that may seem.

> Certainly is improbably....after all, "Perfect Sound Forever" was supposed
> to do in vinyl.

Harry, if you have problems with the "perfect sound forever"
slogan, take it up with the *marketing* genius who came up
with it. The ongoing attempts to lay that at the feet of
the technical people invilved in the medium might feel good,
but such attempts are quite misdirected and, frankly, are
getting very tiring.

> It was buried by the press and by engineering types like
> yourself....and flowers planted on it. Funny thing happened though. The
> ground heaved, and up she came again.....not quite her old self, but living
> and breathing. What's not to marvel over/do a story about?

Gee, sounds like a zombie movie to me! Where's my nerf gun
bag of tube socks?

--
+--------------------------------+
+ Dick Pierce |
+ Professional Audio Development |
+--------------------------------+

On Dec 9, 5:25=A0pm, Keith <khug...@nospam.net> wrote:

> I mean, look at the album numbers from 2007-2008:
>
> LP's - increased by 1.6M units - which is well more than double;
> CD's - decreased by 126.4M units
> Downloads - increased by 14.4M units
>
> The *story*, IMO, is that overall album sales dropped by 108.6M units!
>
> And the uptick in downloads (excluding singles, and DVDs) is almost 9
> times the increase in LP's. And that 'massive' increase in LP's is still
> only 0.36% of the total sales (for a total LP sales of 0.66%). =A0I mean
> let's face it, when the overall album market (comprised of 3 basic media
> types) drops 20%, a <0.4% relative change in one medium is statistically
> insignificant.

These are RIAA shipment figures, if anyone cares. They understate the
download side, which is predominantly singles and rose by 200M units,
equivalent to about 20M albums' worth. Add in the, um, "unofficial"
downloads, and vinyl's market share looks even more puny.

bob

"bob" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Dec 8, 2:50=A0pm, "Harry Lavo" <hl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The Times reporter didn't say it wasn't a fad -- the ower of J&R said it
>> wasn't a fad. =A0Who's better to judge....you, or she who talks to and
>> ca=
> ters
>> to her customers?
>
> Check again, Harry. The sentence has neither quotes nor attribution.
> It's the reporter's words.

I stand corected, Bob, thank you. In fact it was the reporters conclusion.
Whether or not she may have influenced that conclusion we don't know....but
apparently some facts did, as he said in full "Sales of vinyl albums have
been climbing steadily for several years, tromping on the notion that the
rebound was just a fad."

He might have been looking at something like the list of evidence that Scott
published here just a few days ago, which if I may quote in full, was as
follows:

"The booming trend became apparent in 2003. Nielsen SoundScan
announced that ?formats classified as ?Other? (largely vinyl, but
including a small number of DVD audio- albums) showed an increase of
more than 30 per cent in the period 2000-2003.? (Hayes 2006) That same
year The National Association of Recording Merchandisers (NARM)
reported that sales of new and used vinyl records combined had
increased by more than 300 percent since 2000, bringing in $67
million. New CDs alone brought in more than $12 billion. The
mainstream was obviously in the digital domain, but vinyl replay as a
subculture was definitely on the rise. (Manez, 2003) The owner of
independent reissue label Sundazed in New York commented: ?I don't
consider it a small niche anymore. At Sundazed, we did half a million
in sales in vinyl in 2003. That's not small potatoes. "It has become
so much more mainstream that even the lay person knows something's
going on.? (Petrick, 2004) Yet the biggest boom was still to come. 6.4
Vinyl is back in the (youth) mainstream Last year, Virgin Megastores
UK announced it would re-arrange its stores to better accommodate
vinyl records. According to the company, ?up to 70 percent of sales of
new releases are vinyl.? (Glover, 2006). In 2007, in the UK Virgin
Megastores, vinyl outsells CDs 80% to 20% for albums available on both
formats. (Lindich, 2007) Even the 7? vinyl single has returned.
According to the British Phonographic Industry (BPI), ?annual sales of
vinyl singles in the U.K. rose sixfold, accounting for 14.7 percent of
all physical singles sales in 2005, up from 12.2 percent in 2004.? Of
course this applies to customers actually coming into stores to buy
music on a physical carrier. However, Virgin Megastores UK predicts
that digital music downloads "will account for no more than 10 percent
of the overall market by 2009. The company hopes its vinyl strategy ?
will offer consumers enough added value to head off growing
competition from cut-price supermarket CD offers and internet download
services." (Glover, 2006) Also chain store HMV agrees that vinyl is
back and the company has been rapidly expanding its record racks to
meet rising demand. (Allen, 2007)"

Let's see....2003 to 2009....does that constitute a trend?

On Dec 9, 9:09=A0pm, "Harry Lavo" <hl...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> He might have been looking at something like the list of evidence that Sc=
ott
> published here just a few days ago, which if I may quote in full, was as
> follows:
>
> =A0"The booming trend became apparent in 2003. Nielsen SoundScan
> announced that ?formats classified as ?Other? (largely vinyl, but
> including a small number of DVD audio- albums) showed an increase of
> more than 30 per cent in the period 2000-2003.?

That also includes SACD, which was introduced in that period and, with
DVD-A, likely accounts for the totality of the increase.

> (Hayes 2006) That same
> year The National Association of Recording Merchandisers (NARM)
> reported that sales of new and used vinyl records combined had
> increased by more than 300 percent since 2000,

For every person who buys a used LP, somebody gets rid of one. So
that's evidence of disinterest as well as interest.

Look, there's no question that there's been an uptick, and the data we
have isn't good enough to tell us exactly when it started. The NYT
cites only an increase from 2008 to 2009, according to Nielsen
Soundscan. RIAA shipments began rising in 2007. And, let's face it, if
this had been a trend that had been going on for years, the NYT
probably wouldn't have been interested in writing about it. This is a
man-bites-dog story precisely because the turnaround is so recent.

bob

>"Dick Pierce" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Harry Lavo wrote:
>> "Arny Krueger" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>>
>>>"Harry Lavo" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>>news:(E-Mail Removed)
>>>
>>>
>>>>That's a reasonable position, Dick. All I am saying she
>>>>is well positioned to judge as opposed to many other of
>>>>us. I just found it another in an interesting string of
>>>>antecdotes re: the pickup in this market over the last
>>>>five or so years. She struck me as a reasonably
>>>>well-positioned source.
>>>
>>>I question the logic. The management of a single retail store or a small
>>>retail chain is basically just one small data point.
>>
>> Agreed to the single point, but this does happen to be the largest music
>> retailer in NYC.....not exactly podunk, Iowa.
>
>But it's but one data point, and missing data at that.

Yep, so clearly it is anecdotal....but based on her own multiyear statistics
and experience in a city that is often a forerunner of trends elsewhere.

>
>> J&R sells everything electronic, everything music, everything photo,
>> everything kitchen, every.....man,
>
>So? How is that relevant?

Because she has no apparent commercial reason to be biased towards vinyl and
against other forms of music and machines to retrieve it, which she also
sells.

>
>>that's a lot of biases!
>
> Yes, it is. Are we to think that people are incapable of holding
> more than a small handful of biases and opinions at once? Indeed,
> I might even suggest that people are quite capably of not only
> holding a multitude of biases simultaneously, but that many of
> them may contradict and conflict, as irrational as that may seem.

Yes indeedy, they can (I was a student of behavioral psychology back in
business school). But I suspect commercial biases are a bit more rational
than that.

>
>> Certainly is improbably....after all, "Perfect Sound Forever" was
>> supposed to do in vinyl.
>
> Harry, if you have problems with the "perfect sound forever"
> slogan, take it up with the *marketing* genius who came up
> with it. The ongoing attempts to lay that at the feet of
> the technical people invilved in the medium might feel good,
> but such attempts are quite misdirected and, frankly, are
> getting very tiring.

I fail to see above where I singled out engineers or technical people...I
was simply referring to the great "brainwash" that took place upon CD's
birth courtesy of SONY. I think you are a bit sensitive to this, although I
can assure you there were any number of technical folk who were happy to
dring the cool aid, as noted below:

>> It was buried by the press and by engineering types like yourself....and
>> flowers planted on it. Funny thing happened though. The ground heaved,
>> and up she came again.....not quite her old self, but living and
>> breathing. What's not to marvel over/do a story about?

Press = marketing releases = marketing folk, whom you don't want to be
associated with
Engineering types = sales support engineers = those who try to snow the
customer/press in support of the marketing types

I am happy to say I know you were not among either group.

> Gee, sounds like a zombie movie to me! Where's my nerf gun
> bag of tube socks?

:-)

Left them on campus, did you?



> --
> +--------------------------------+
> + Dick Pierce |
> + Professional Audio Development |
> +--------------------------------+