Bach's (who else?) cello suites

Discussion in 'Classical Music' started by Rodrigo de Sá, Jun 21, 2006.

  1. Rodrigo de Sá

    Rodrigo de Sá This club's crushing bore

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    Hi all.

    I have not listened to much music lately. Yesterday I listened to some of Anner Bylsma's Bach cello suites (second recording).

    I quite marvelled about them. I'm saying nothing new, here, as I liked the record the first time I listened to it.

    Nevertheless, I was again deeply moved. My thoughts were: this must be the true way to play these pieces; but how can one reproduce all the passion throught the organ or the harpsichord.

    So this is the starting point of this post.

    The cello, and the violin or gamba family, has much more possibilities than any keyboard instrument: attacks are differenciated, the note can swell, vibrate, almost everything you want to do (if you are a virtuoso).

    But the passion Bylsma puts into his Bach has, as far as I know, never been reproduced in his keyboard pieces. Of course there is Leonhardt and the English suites (the sarabandes, mostly). And, of course, in a fugue this way of playing is completely impossible.

    Nevertheless, I would like to listen to the fugues of the well tempered clavier in a string rendition.

    And this is possible, because Mozart actually transcribed some of the fugues for strings.

    Anyone knows of recordings?

    Anyone cares to discuss how, through the organ or the harpsichord, can this level of passion (Bylsma's) be achieved?

    And finally: some thoughts on the suites are welcome, as any suggestion to more recordings.
     
    Rodrigo de Sá, Jun 21, 2006
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  2. Rodrigo de Sá

    lordsummit moderate mod

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    I like Starker, although sometimes he is a little fast for my tastes.
    Ma has done two recordings. I much prefer the first. Tortelier is wonderful in the slow ones, a bit coarse occasionally in the faster movements. Casals plays wonderfully musically, but a little idiosyncratically for todays tastes. All this is in my opinion of course. Those are the sets I know best.
    The great thing about these suites is that as a viola player I can play them :)
     
    lordsummit, Jun 21, 2006
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  3. Rodrigo de Sá

    pe-zulu

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    Dear RdS

    My spontaneous reaction is, that this sort of expressivity isn´t needed on either harpsichord or organ. But I have to listen to the same Bylsma interpretation again before answering. Haven´t heard it for a couple of years now. I own a number of other recordings of the Cello Suites and may elaborate further. Bylsma would never (if I remember correctly) be my first nor even second choice. Generally I prefer more dancing interpretations like Jaap ter Linden´s.

    I have heard a few of the WTC fugues in Mozarts arrangement for string quartet, and honestly, wasn´t impressed. No, give me Leonhardt or Walcha.

    A better way of realizing the WTC Fugues (if not on keyboard) might be vocally, preferably solo voices; as you know, Walcha often asked his audience to sing the parts, while he accompanied the singing.

    Kindest regards,
     
    pe-zulu, Jun 21, 2006
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  4. Rodrigo de Sá

    Masolino

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    The Hagen Quartet recorded all(?) four-part Bach/Mozart fugues (without the preludes composed by Mozart) with Beethoven Opp. 130/133. L'Archibudelli includes 4 Mozart/JS/WF Bach fugues in 3 parts (and with Mozart's preludes) in their recording of the Divertimento K. 563. There must be other versions.
     
    Masolino, Jun 22, 2006
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  5. Rodrigo de Sá

    Rodrigo de Sá This club's crushing bore

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    Dear Masolino

    Thanks. Could you indicate the label, please?

    I have only four fugues by Phantasm (a Gamba consort); they are the complement to a rather good Art of Fugue.

    Dear Pe-Zulu

    I rather think that fugues sound very well with violins or viols. They are not an alternative to harpsichord, but the complete independence of each voice and the subsequent possibility of modulate it makes counterpoint rather interesting.

    Of course, not all quartets are sufficiently familiar with Bach's idiom, and that, I think, is the main problem. I have several interpretations of the AoF with string quartets (or viola consorts) but I agree the organ or the harpsichord works best. Perhaps because Walcha, Leonhardt or Gilbert are plain better 'Bachians'?

    There is also a rather interesting record of the Goldbergs with strings. This is awful to admit, but since I don't like the Golbergs much, I rather like this recording: at least it makes for a change.
     
    Rodrigo de Sá, Jun 22, 2006
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  6. Rodrigo de Sá

    Masolino

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    Dear RdS,

    The information you requested is as follows:

    Bach, J S:
    The Well-Tempered Clavier Book 2 BWV870-893
    (arranged for string quartet by Mozart, K405)

    Beethoven:
    String Quartet No. 13 in B flat Op. 130

    Große Fuge Op. 133
    Mozart:
    Adagio & Fugue in C minor for Strings, K546

    The Hagen Quartet (DG 471 580- 2)


    Trio (Divertimento), K. 563 and Preludes & Fugues K. 404/
    Sony Vivarte SK46497
    L'Archibudelli

    Trio (Divertimento), K. 563 and Preludes & Fugues K. 404/Philips 416485-2
    Grumiaux Trio

    Hope that this helps.

    FangLin
     
    Masolino, Jun 22, 2006
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  7. Rodrigo de Sá

    Rodrigo de Sá This club's crushing bore

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    Fear FangLi:

    Many thanks for your kindness.

    I think it's this. I listened to samples from the site, but was not altogether convinced. I quite understand pe-zulu's reservations: they are too romantic.

    Anyway, I have always dreamt of the Art of Fugue sung by the Hilliards! It was not to be - I don't even know if it is possible: four octaves (I know nothing about voice ranges!)? It may be possible. What would the singers say? ee soprano, a alto, o tenor and oo bass? Sing the name of the notes (!??!), just ah-ah the whole thing?
     
    Rodrigo de Sá, Jun 22, 2006
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  8. Rodrigo de Sá

    Masolino

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    Dear RdS,

    I think "Art of Fugue" sung by Hilliard Ensemble is quite
    impossible, for not even Orlando Consort could cut it. :)
    As the Fretwork "Modo Alio" disc which I happen to own
    suggests, it takes a lot to maintain the "one part, one
    instrument" integrity when it comes to keyboard
    music transcriptions - tricky when the actual parts
    cross each other. What would Bach have done if he
    was to make a choral transcription of his instrumental
    music? Maybe the fact that he never did can tell us
    a thing or two. The Swingle Singers have done some
    Bach clavier fugues but I have not listened to any of
    their recordings.
     
    Masolino, Jun 23, 2006
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  9. Rodrigo de Sá

    pe-zulu

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    Dear RdS

    The main reason, why harpsichord or organ works best here, is in my opinion, that this music is idiomatic keyboard-music. Every one of the very many attempts to arrange it for different chamber ensembles, I have heard during the years, has always been "strange" in some way, i.e. not sounding like his genuine chamber music. And this has told me, that Bach would have written the music otherwise, if he had meant it to be played by an ensemble, or he would have made a specific orchestral arrangement himself.

    This is my primary objection, and it extends to the Fugues of the WTC too. The fact that an orchestral rendering may invite to some romanticism makes things even worse. Arranging the AoF for orchester Wolfgang Graeser did a good PR job, but the downside is, that he caused the AoF to become considered an orchestral work for a long time. The power of habit is great, - compare how some listeners still claim, that Bachs keyboard music was meant to be played on piano.

    Initially I got to know the AoF through the first recording of Kurt Redel and his Pro Arte Orchester, München, scored with 2 oboi, 2 fagotti and small string ensemble, and I listened much to this recording for about 8 years, before I ever heard a recording on organ, so I am not biased against a chamber version in any way.

    Regards,
     
    pe-zulu, Jun 23, 2006
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  10. Rodrigo de Sá

    Masolino

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    Must agree with pe-zulu on his point above. And this is even truer of the Goldberg Variations, which is even more idiomatic as clavier music but owes much of its current popularity to all sorts of transcriptions (most of all Sitkovetsky's arrangement for the string trio.)
     
    Masolino, Jun 23, 2006
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  11. Rodrigo de Sá

    Coda II getting there slowly

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    The Emerson String Quartet have recorded the Art of Fugue:amazon
    Having heard an excerpt on radio it was on my must get round to picking that up list for some time - not there yet!
     
    Coda II, Jun 23, 2006
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  12. Rodrigo de Sá

    Rodrigo de Sá This club's crushing bore

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    Dear Pe-zulu and Masolino

    While I would not recommend, say, Münchinger's AoF as the standard version of the work, I must acknowledge that, even if I agree that it is idiomatically keyboard music, I like it this way. I have always liked transcriptions, I even like the c#minor WTC I fugue when played by brass bands!

    In fact, Bach's fugues are very odd in that they survive almost any transposition. For the most part, they do not specifically ask for organ or harpsichord. His suites or his chorales do. The fugues seem to me to simply be 'fugues'. Bach had to make them fit into his hands, and as his hands and ours are similar (an easy 9th, a somewhat more difficult 10th, a large 7th with 5th and 2nd finger) we feel it as keyboard music. Well, it is keyboard music. But it survives rather well in other instruments.

    But try to transpose Couperin, Buxtehude, Ravel*[footnote] or even Beethoven: a great deal will be lost, because they composed for a given sound medium (even if Beethoven was deaf, the Hammerklavier cannot be played but on a Hammerklavier - including a Steinway).

    This is not to say that 'Bach is better'. In a way it is 'worse', since he does not explore the potentialities of the instruments (Buxtehude or Couperin soar above him in this respect, really). I sometimes feel that all Bach's organ music asks for is a plenum, a couple of flutes and a sexquialter ...

    But I am becoming rather indifferent to the medium. I don't like certain sounds (for instance, it would not have passed through my mind to buy a saxophone reading of the AoF, and I do not really like piano sound), but I do like string quartets, viol consorts and all of that.

    That is perhaps because I was trained as an organist. When one sees one can play a fugue with a regal, a principal, a flute choir, the full organ or whatever, sound considerations are not very important.

    So, yes, both WTC and AoF fugues are keyboard, but they are listenable in other instruments, IMO. At least I like it.

    Dear Coda II:

    Thank you for the link. I had my mind on it, but I did not buy it, just because I have two other AoF in String Quartet. One is bad (Julliard, I think), the other fair (I don't recall the interpreters, but the cover of the CD is some sort of a snow picture).

    Anyone who knows the Emerson version very well? Some more information on how they played it, Coda II?

    ------------
    * A pianist friend of mine came to visit the harpsichord; she played Ravel and Rachmaninov in it!!! Ravel was quite a treat!
     
    Rodrigo de Sá, Jun 25, 2006
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  13. Rodrigo de Sá

    bat Connoisseur Par Excelence

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    Quertetto Bernini's AoF is one of the best? I have that.

    A distant relative of harpsichord is the santoor, which I like very much. I know Menuhin was also a big fan of Indian classical. This may be comparing apples with oranges, but for instance "Raga Vachaspati" by Shiv Kumar Sharma is up there with Bach or any great music.
     
    bat, Jun 25, 2006
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  14. Rodrigo de Sá

    lordsummit moderate mod

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    You know it's impossible to keep you lot tidy :) Start a thread about the Bach Cello Suites and you're still talking about the AOF!!
    I give up
     
    lordsummit, Jun 25, 2006
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  15. Rodrigo de Sá

    Rodrigo de Sá This club's crushing bore

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    Your Summitship

    In fact, this is my fault: the opening thread had everything to be confusing. I talked about the cello suites and went on to the merits of stringed instruments playing keyboard music!:mo:

    So let me try to redress the thread, even if the discussion was heading in an interesting direction.

    I know quite a lot of interpretations of the cello suites. I have Casals, Whisplewy (spelling), Fournier, Ma, Bylsma, and perhaps others.

    My feeling is that it is just incredible how Bylsma gives sense to music. Even if I do not agree in certain places, I always feel amazed. Casals was already very good (if a tad hard), and I really think he must be on every cello lover shelves.

    But Bylsma is quite another thing. Most musicians pull Bach to a sort of classicism. Bylsma gives us a 17th Century'sh rendition.

    That was the paralelism I drew with harpsichord playing: when one pushes Bach towards the 17th Century using a harpsichord or an organ, it usually does not work (except for the suites and some, rare, free movements).

    Having said that, even if I said I wanted to restore a little discipline, I will change my mind and speak about harpsichord and organ playing again.

    There are two tendencies in playing Bach. One is to bring it towards classicism. This is the way Gilbert or Rousset play Bach.
    And then, there is the tendency to play Bach in a style more akin to the 17th Century - Leonhardt and his schoool.

    My point is: in the suites, Bach is better server by the 17th Century approach; not in fugues, where an 18th century approach seems to work better (it is almost impossible to play a fugue in a 'fantasticus' style - just see the chromatic fantasy and fugue: the fantasy is 'fantastic' and the fugue quite regular, even if very wild towards the end).

    So, my original question was about harpsichord or organ interpretation: should we think that Bylsma is right? If he is right we are playing Bach's harpsichord suites wrong, right?
     
    Rodrigo de Sá, Jun 25, 2006
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  16. Rodrigo de Sá

    pe-zulu

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    Dear RdS

    I can agree with you so far, that I think Bachs keyboard fugues suffer less when transcribed to other mediums, than I would expect e.g. Buxtehudes fuges to do. But I can´t avoid a feeling of a totally un-Bachian sound, compared f.ex. with the Bachian sound of the violin concertos, when I hear his keyboard fugues played by string quartet or string ensemble. Almost similar to the uncomfortable feeling I had, when I played Bach on piano as a child, even if I never had heard of a harpsichord at that time.
    And actually I can´t find (m)any examples from Bachs hand of a litteral transcription from one medium to another. He always made some reworking to make the music suit the new medium.

    When Münchinger transcribed the AoF for string ensemble and a few winds, he made a litteral transcription, and the result is beautiful, but very un-Bachian, the most absurd parts being the two part canons or the all-too modern sounding reed instrument in the three part mirror fugue. So why make these modern transcriptions. What do they add, which isn´t already contained in an organ rendering, other than unstylish elements?

    Regards,
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 25, 2006
    pe-zulu, Jun 25, 2006
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  17. Rodrigo de Sá

    pe-zulu

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    Dear RdS

    I my opinion Bach´s harpsichord music must always be played with a regular basic pulse, but within this frame a free rhetorical rhytm should reign, and an inventive and rhytm-dependent articulation should be used. This is, what I understand by "stylus phantasticus" even in the context of a fugue, whether by Bach, Buxtehude or anyone else. Well, there are Bach fugues which are so regular in construction as to defy this, e.g. WTC part two E-major fugue and much of the AoF, but I think the "Chromatic Fugue" is a less suited example in view of the many "phantastic" semiquaver passages in the work which invites to unequal execution (not necessary paired notes but maybe four notes in a group). Of course passages with close tematic work in all parts e.g. end of b flat minor fugue WTC part one or end of b minor organ fugue after Corelli must be played more strict, but these tend to be the exceptions. That said I confess, that I find a style like Gilbert´s imbued with spirituality, but that I miss the rhetorical and phantastic content of the music.

    You write that an 18th century approach works better in a Bach fugue, but what is an 18th century approach? Early 18th century, middle 18th century, late 18th century? And do you mean the way hip-sters interprete these styles to day? So you make me a bit confused.

    Never-the-less I have to relisten to Bylsma very soon to understand fully what you mean, as I don´t remember his style exactly.

    Regards,
     
    pe-zulu, Jun 25, 2006
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  18. Rodrigo de Sá

    Rodrigo de Sá This club's crushing bore

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    It is funny that you mention that, because yesterday I picked up the WTC II and read a couple of fugues. The writing is, of course, very harpsichordy (eb major, for instance), I mean, there is a lot of 'false polyphony' - a phrase ends in the soprano in a long note whereas it is really continued in the alto, and we get the impression there is only one voice when there are actually two. This was, of course, intended to sound this way (even if you play it on a modern grand, the illusion will be there). In the AoF this is also true, as Leonhardt remarked in his very intelligent study on the Art of Fugue (I posted a link to it in another thread). So I tend to agree with you.

    However, it can sound magnificent on the organ, and so do many fugues of the WTC; the e major WTC II is indeed a good example, even if I like it better on the harpsichord.

    But when I say I liked Münchinger's version, I am not saying that it is Bach. Very far from it, since it is rather romantic (if also very intense and desperate). However, it works: it is extremely beautiful.

    I think of it this way: even if it never entered my mind to play the big c minor organ prelude (the one with chords) in anything other than a plenum (preferably a 16-32 one), I can conceive (indeed, I do conceive) the a minor prelude and fugue begining with a Vox humana+octave 2 and a Principal 32+Octave 16 in the pedal. That is almost certainly not the way Bach played it. However, it reveals something of the music. The same, I think, can be said about string quartet renditions. It is not quite Bach, it may even be against the way he intended the work to function. But it may still be musical and, while not quite what Bach wanted, shed light on what he wrote (of course, Gould has nothing to do with this: he actually plays against the music).

    So it really is a question of degree, I think.

    Interesting subject.
     
    Rodrigo de Sá, Jun 25, 2006
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  19. Rodrigo de Sá

    Rodrigo de Sá This club's crushing bore

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    I answered to this in the cello suites thread.

    Well, this is not exactly my view of stylus fantasticus, even if I agree that, when translated to a fugue, it is be adequately put.

    But I see stylus fantasticus as very well represented by the unmeasured preludes of Louis Couperin and the d minor Tocata of Buxtehude: there is no actual measure in Couperin, and there are no bars in Buxtehude. So what I actuaslly think is required is a very flowing, almost unmetrical (in the sense that notation is only very approximative) rendering. I myself like to link it to breathing: there are big inspirations, expirations, and they can even be interrupted. This does not mean I agree with Lena Jakobsen (in fact I simply do not understand what she is trying to say), but Vogel's approach is, I think, fundamentally sound.

    So, apart from a few pieces, I do not see Bach as requiring stylus fantasticus. So we may simply using difference senses of what stylus fantasticus is.

    That said, you would certainly link Bylsma with the stylus fantasticus. And I would to, even if the connection has escaped me. So you may well be right: what is great about Bylsma is actually that he uses the stylus fantasticus.

    Yes, it was very confusing: I meant Gilbert's understanding or Bach, more or less.
    Please do: I'd be delighted to have your opinion.

    very interesting exange of views, thank you.
     
    Rodrigo de Sá, Jun 25, 2006
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  20. Rodrigo de Sá

    bat Connoisseur Par Excelence

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    Wow, you boys sure are intellectual. I am now listening to Mischa Maisky's second recording of Bach's (?) cello suites. The compositions do not appear to be very good - they seem to lack imagination and complexity. In other words, rather boring stuff, although the craftmanship is certainly there. On the other hand Maisky's instrument sounds glorious and is excellently captured by DG. What is more, according to photos Maisky is an exact Jesus look-alike - has anyone else noticed the resemblance?
     
    bat, Jun 27, 2006
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