Beethoven Shoot-out

I had a little Beethoven shoot-out with a friend the other day. In fact it was the continuation of an earlier comparison we had had. The symphony we were comparing different performances / recordings of was the Fourth symphony, which happens to be my favorite. I guess I like the Fourth so much because it seems to be just about the music and beautiful orchestral combinations. Most other Beethoven symphonies invite extra-musical notions.

The previous time we had compared the new Rattle VPO recording with Mackerras and the Liverpool Phil, and with Harnoncourt and the Chamber Orchestra of Europe. Oh, and the Dresden Staatskapelle with Colin Davis, and the Zinman Zurich Tonhalle.

The Rattle, naturally, features outstanding playing by the Vienna Phil, but it's spoiled by Rattle's overemphatic approach. Every single phrase is turned into a minidrama. I used to like the Colin Davis recording, though on hearing it again I was struck by the large cumbersome canvas the music is painted on, as became apparent while listening to the Harnoncourt. This is a thoroughly enjoyable performance. OK, there are the usual barking Harnoncourt sforzandi; it doesn't matter which composer he's performing, they are always there. But the music is fun and beautiful. After Harnoncourt the Macherras was dull, and the Zinman just OK.

The Fourth is about playing the string section off against woodwind and brass choirs. But there are also quite a number of solos for woodwinds - most notably the gorgeous clarinet solo in the Adagio and the breakneck solo for bassoon joining two sections in the finale. This means you need to have a great bunch of woodwind players to succeed in this piece. The Zinman and Mackerras clearly failed in this respect.

The second time we were at my place and we listened to: Toscanini and the NBC Symphony in 1939 (Naxos); Walter and the Columbia Symphony in 1958 (or so); Carlos Kleiber and the Bavaria Radio S (1984, Orfeo); Giuilini and the La Scala Phil (1994), Gardiner and the Monteverdi Boys; and finally, Abbado and the Berlin Phil (2000).

Toscanini was interesting: very slow introduction, but great dialogues between the orchestra sections. However, there is no repose in the music with Toscanini. Walter was boring. Too much repose. An orchestra with a thousand violins and way too ponderous playing in the second mvt. Kleiber: vigorous and energetic; this is a real event. However, a lot of secondary material is swept under the rug, and the orchestral balance favors the strings. After Kleiber the Giulini was bound to be slow. Still, this is a great visionary performance. Perhaps the orchestra is a couple players too large, and the tempi are a tad slow, but they are never dull (as in Walter and Davis) and the structures are beautifully moulded.

I had expected Abbado would clearly come out the winner. He has the best orchestra of the bunch, and I really like this performance. However, my friend pointed out that the first mvt has a couple of dead moments. Still the second mvt is beautiful, and the finale is a party, as it should be. Interestingly Abbado has incorporated some period practice ideas (mostly in matters of tempo), with the result that most of the Gardiner sounded superfluous after Abbado (except for the melancholy, echt-romantic clarinet solo).

For me the winners are Abbado and Harnoncourt. I suspect my friend's winners are Giulini and Kleiber. And of course the real winner is Beethoven and the Fourth. We had been listening to all these versions, and today I was surprised to find I actually wanted to hear this music again!

So, anybody else wants to do a Beethoven comparison? Comments on the Fourth are welcomed, too, naturally.

Herman

 

Very interesting, Hermann. I tend to go for the 3rd, 5th and 8th. We already did the 9th (below - recovered from Groovehandle). What's your preferred version of it?

 

Why I Hardly Ever Listen to the Ninth

Hi Tones,

I had indeed considered posting the Fourth stuff in the Ninth Thread, but I didn't.

The Eighth is an interesting preference. What do you like in that one? Obviously 3, 5 are the big canonical winners. Everybody knows what they are about: the Napoleonic Hero; Man's Struggle against Fate; and the Ninth is about the Brotherhood of Man. Why I like the Fourth is it doesn't seem to be about anything but the music, and the huge fun it can be to write for a good orchestra (or to listen to it). The Seventh is a bit like that, too (even though that one's supposed to be the Apotheosis of the Dance - I can live with that).

I seem to recall there were a couple of comments in the Ninth thread saying it was not a piece one listens to a lot, and I sure don't. The typical Beethovenian virtue of massive concentration is conspicuously lacking in the Ninth - for a reason obviously, just as in the Eroica. The Ninth is a symphony about creative growth, in that while you're in the concert hall you can see (hear) Beethoven's material taking shape, and it keeps on growing till the big blasts come and the Town Hall Meeting commences: "O Freunde, nicht diese Töne". In the hall it's very exciting, but from a purely classical point of view it's an affront, too. You have to wait thirty minutes till the guy is sure what he's going to do? Please.

So I definitely feel the Ninth is (like all truly theatrical music) a piece you have to see live (also to prevent one from getting used to the thing too much). I believe I have three recordings: Karajan seventies, Haitink 1980 and Gardiner (which I'm listening to as I type), but I rarely ever play them, sorry. For the combination of the number Nine and Himmlische Länge I really prefer the Schubert C major (even though some say it's not his Ninth).

Herman

 

Re: Why I Hardly Ever Listen to the Ninth

This was a typo! I actually meant to type 6th (Pastoral)! The 8th is OK, but I don't like how Beethoven takes half an hour to end the thing (BOM-bom-BOM-bom-BOMbomBOMbomBOMbomBOMbom-BOM-bom (and so on for another dozen laps or so)).

With regard to the Pastoral, I quite like Gardiner's, which steers a nice middle ground between the extremes. I was always disappointed by Karajan who presumably was driving through the countryside in one of his Porsches. On the other hand, many are slow to the point of ponderousness, the record being an old Klemperer recording that sounded as if the peasants merrymaking were about to fall into bed.

With regard to the Ninth, and as I said previously, I regard it as an assemblage of bits that sort-of hang together (the introduction to the Ode to Joy theme ("O Freunde, nicht diese Tönen") is downright corny). The things is, these bits are absolutely marvellously wrought, with brilliantly worked-out details - for example, the string playing following the Turkish march is some of the most exciting in any piece I know. This is what takes me back to it - it comes across to me as a collection of beautifully-formed miniatures, rather than a cohesive whole.

 

We really need Titian on this one - although maybe he's already started the comparison and half way through his 3rd or 4th complete cycle (I'm sure I saw at least 6, to say nothing of the one-offs)

Interesting and useful...I need a CD copy of the 4th, since I only have it on LP (Jochum/LSO), and haven't played it in years (and can't now as my system is currently - temporarily? - TT-less).

I don't really have different versions of Beethoven stuff to do a proper shootout. My only multiple copies on CD are 7 (C.Kleiber, Zinman), with LP/CD are 5 (Ormandy/Philly and the classic C.Kleiber), and 8 (Karajan '77 and Zinman). I do also have an old tape of 3 (Maazel) vs Furtwangler '52. (Also Karajan 9 '77 on CD and LP, Boehm 6 on LP, that Jochum 4, and Furtwangler 1. To my shame, I don't actually have a copy of 2 at all).

In the absence of detailed comparisons, I guess I can only really make general comments. I seem to prefer versions that stress the more heart-on-sleeve, "Sturm und Drang" side of LvB than the classicist, so in the above I go primaly for the Kleiber, Karajan and Maazel.

Both 7ths are pretty fast - Zinman making use of the new del Mar edition. I have to say I mostly like both, but Kleiber fills it full of emotion where Zinman seems to treat it like great excuse for a party. In particular Kleiber turns the 2nd movement into another funeral march (which I love), whereas Zinman may stick more to LvB's marking of Allegretto but the lilting pulse somehow doesn't quite match the doom-laden harmonies. The one area where I really don't like the Zinman is the trio sections of the 3rd movement, which are played far too fast (and verging on the trite) for my taste. In the last movement Zinman is actually faster than Kleiber, but whereas Zinman plays it pretty straight from beginning to end, making me wonder whether the theme comes back once or twice too often, Kleiber keeps on racking up the tension to more and more furious levels (the dance being 'apotheosed' here thus being the tarantella?). This is the one that gets me up cavorting around the room, always leaves me quite out-of-breath at its end and gets the "wow". Despite being fairly hard on the Zinman here I do however find it a very 'fun' performance, and well worth its £4.50 cover price. Different views of the same piece, and both get played fairly regularly.

For the 8th, again Zinman comes over rather lighthearted and fun to the point of being superficial compared to the Karajan - it doesn't really have the same sense of overall purpose. The minuet does seem very hurried and takes a while to get into its stride when switching between the main sections and trios. Again, a very good effort and I mostly enjoy playing it, but it doesn't keep drawing me back like the Karajan (maybe I do need to get myself a phono stage sorted out after all ). BTW I don't consider this symphony just some mere trifle between two greats - the tension between the overt classicism of its form/orchestration and the underlying seething emotions make it one of my favourite symphonies. But having heard the Scherzo from the new Rattle/VPO set, that one will certainly not be entering my house! (To not keep an absolutely rock solid pulse in this movement of all movements is nothing short of criminal)

I was actually very disappointed by the Furtwangler 3rd after all the rave reviews it gets - it really did seem so stodgy and overladen with leaden gravitas - although I suspect most people would criticise the Maazel for tasteless superficiality. Neither would be an unreserved choice though.

I also want a different 6th - I have the Boehm/VPO, and particularly find the "Am Bach" slow movement rather tedious. If you wish it were over half way through, something's wrong. (I was also put off listening to more than the 1st movement of the 5th by Ormandy's rendering of that slow movement). In a comparative review of the 6th I heard about 18 months ago I heard excerpts from various performances, and the recent Abbado/BPO sounded wonderful - lithe but with depth. Now it's issued outside of the full set I could well be getting that (although I've also seen the odd very sniffy review of it).

OK - so I'm in a minority here in thinking the 9th works very well, although maybe not in a strictly classical sense. We did a bit on the structure of the last movement on the other thread, but extending my random pontifications a bit further you can see the first three movements as the apogees of their respective forms, the classical symphony is clearly bursting at its seams (or somewhere else) after the massive gestation period of burgeoning romanticism that is Beethoven's entire output, and the last movement is the inevitable result of that - a triumph of function over strict form?

 

I have been away these last days, hiding from the heath (small house, close to the Atlantic, you can feel the salt in your lips and seagulls fly just above your head). Today I came home and, during the drive through the highway I turned the radio on and there was an unmistakable chord of the 7th symphony. Up went the volume, and the adrenaline (I did a little car racing this week, so it was easy to put the pedal to the metal, driven by all the adrenalin of this fantastic music). And then I found this thread…

Now I always liked the 7th, but usually don't listen to it at home. I don't like to listen to Symphonic stuff at home; as a matter of fact I have only one version of the cycle, the sixty odd Karajan one (I recently bought an excellent 5th by Kubelick, spurred by Tones's and Graham's enthusiasm); I very seldom listen to it: I learned most Beethoven Symphonies in the concert halls when I was an adolescent.

So, I can't possibly comment on interpretations. I like Karajan, but I remember Bruno Walter being much more impressive; his fifth was unbelievable. I liked JE Gardiner's 9th.

My favourite? It is very difficult. I know them all so well. Today I'd say I prefer the 7th, but that is just because I just listened to it. I like the 6th very much, too; I used to listen to it at home when I was a child. The 8th is a curious throwback but I like it. Never really liked the 9th. When I was a child I found the 'O Freunde, nicht diese Töne' extremely ridiculous. You will roast me alive, but I never quite overcame that… And also, all the counterpoint promises are so sorely disappointing (come to that this is also true about the 7th, and even of most of the piano sonatas: Beethoven's counterpoint is not true counterpoint at all. By I digress. I know I'm addicted to fugues and that is not a good point from which to evaluate Beethoven).

The 5th… I always think of the 1st movement as if played at an enormous organ, with a big 32' posaunenbass.

The 4th. Yes lovely music, less readily accessible than the more famous ones.

Now, if really pressed for a favourite I think I'd go for the third. Such beautiful counterpoint in the second movement… I'll never change, it really is hopeless.

 

I just read this thread a few hours ago and if I did it a day ago I wouldn't be as far as you immagine. You saw 6 complete cycles? Well you didn't see all of them then. Where were you with your mind then?

I have the following cycles on LPs :

Karajan BPO (1962, 1977, 1985)
Bernstein WPO
Böhm
Klemperer
Kubelik
Maazel
Masur
Ormandy
Schmidt-Isserstedt
Solti

and on CDs:

Harnoncourt
Abbado (1988) live: the CD with no1+4 is missing!!

Since I bought them all not longer than 10 months ago, I cannot tell you much about them (I heard them all only once). But if you want, choose a symphony and I will report about the different interpretations.

 

Well, clearly what makes this thread so interesting is it's about the Fourth. So I would be vastly interested in your experiences in that realm. To save you a little time, let's narrow it down and say I'd be mightily intrigued to read how the following compare:

Böhm
Klemperer
Karajan (sixties)
Kubelik
Karajan (seventies)

But it's up to you.

Herman

 

If eveything works well I will receive in two weeks also:

George Szell Cleveland Orchester CBS
Eugen Jochum Concertgebouw-Orchester Amsterdam Philips

I didn't receive yet the scores ( ) and even had time to listen to more than 3 LPs this week.

 

Kubelik's Fourth B

Quite recently I got hold of a Bayerische Rundfunk recording of Beethoven's Fourth on the Audite label (95.493). It's a live performance dating from October 1979. (BTW it's coupled with a rather rare Beethoven item called the Fifth, from November 1969.)

So I have at least three Beethoven Fourths with the Bavarian ROrchestra: Klemperer (1969), Kubelik (1979) and Kleiber (1984). It's fairly obvious which one is the most satisfying. It's Kubelik. Klemperer is late, stodgy K. (he can't help it). Kleiber is what I've said before: exciting, but ultimately messy. Kubelik is at times more exciting yet than Kleiber, but his Beethoven is still as musical as it was intended. And the orchestra plays at an amazing level: one can hear what 18 years of cooperation can do. You could have blindfolded me and told me this was Vienna, Berlin or Amsterdam.

Occasionally the orchestra gets too big and weighty, especially in the inner mvts, but the outer movements are stellar. The finale is utterly thrilling.

A clear recommendation, and I'm wondering if this is the LP in your collection Titian - I doubt it.

Herman

 

Re: Kubelik's Fourth B

You are right in doubting it.
The box containing the complete Beethoven's symphonies with Kubelik, which I've got, was released by DGG in 1976 (2740 155). He is conducting various orchestras such as LSO, Concertgebouw, Berliner Philarmoniker, Israel Philarmonics, BSO, Orchestre de Paris, Wiener Philarmoniker, Members of the Cleveland Orchestra and Symhonie-Orchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks.
In the fourth symphony he is conducting the Irael Philarmonic Orchestra.

At the moment I am getting into the 4th symphony: just listening to the first movement with all the versions I have got. I am trying to get rid of any prejudice and try to enjoy every interpretation. Then I will write about each one. Prefering this or that depends mostly on :
- what you expect from the music
- in which phychological and emotional state you are in
- what you are used to hear

I am trying another approach: try to go into the conductor's emotional state and try to keep myself as most as possible away from it. A very difficult approach which requires a lot of time and concentration but I would like to try it!

 

tremendous fun

Isn't the development section just tremendous fun? I find it very hard to stay put when that flute takes off.

BTW, how the accompanying figure in the 2nd mvt is handled is very interesting too, in comparison.

Personally I feel the Fourth is just a wonderful musical party. Lots of dulce, not too much utile. Love it.

Herman

 

Re: tremendous fun

Nothing better than the 3rd symphony... but you are right: great fun with the 4th...

I am still on the first movement....


Have you heard Jochum with the Concertgebouw? I have heard the first 3 symphonies and I find it a very nice interpretation. It gives me the impression that every passage was carefully studied in every detail and in each one Jochum gives his touch (the third symphony especially). Not really for those listeners who like just a fluidy from the beginning to the end. The quality of the recordings are great, which surprised me.

 

I'm halfway through a full cycle (back to back!).

Thought i would eat after the 8th in prepeartion for the daddy.

The 5th is soooooooooooo good

The one i am listening to at the moment is Roger Norrington and the London Classical Players.

The only other cycle i have is Bela Drahos/Nicolaus Esterhazy Sinfonia on Naxos - haven't listened to it in a while, but i remember it being pretty dire.

 

This is an interesting set of Beethoven symphonies IMHO, recorded in 1961 for Reader's Digest:



This issue is recently re-released in Europe, in a limited edition:

http://www.amazon.de/Sinfonien-1-9-Ludwig-Van-Beethoven/dp/B002TQ3O10

Don't worry about sound quality: it's excellent and crystal clear!
Don't worry about the interpretation, either: fresh, brisk and thoughtful!

Recommended!

 

I do agree

 

Even I tend to agree. I am so old, that I (even if I was very young) remember the rave this recording made when it was released originally in the 1960es. But I had to wait for the recent Chesky rerelease to hear it myself. During the lasr ½ year I have acquired about twenty Beethoven Symphony sets, among which the Leibowitz. And since my preferred listening is organ music, I have made my way through the Beethoven sets very slowly. And I have not listened to but no's 1, 3, 6 and 7 from the Leibowitz set. He is clearly influenced by Toscanini and Weingartner, and he was far ahead of his time, doing what Mackerras and Zinman have done recently, which is to remove the traditional polish and rethinking the music afresh. The result is of course an individual interpretation, and in this case a most rewarding result.