Best Sibelius 5th?

Discussion in 'Classical Music' started by alanbeeb, Aug 5, 2004.

  1. alanbeeb

    alanbeeb Grumpy young fogey

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    I am having a bit of an obsession with this symphony at present as I cannot find a recording I am 100% happy with.

    I have the following ones:
    Karajan/BPO 1965 - good performance but a bit over-smooth and sounds a bit muddy. might try it again now though.
    Rattle/Philharmonia 1982 - great sound and last 2 movements are great but not enough tension in first movement and momentum is lost in lead up to the fantastic coda at end of first movement.
    Rattle/CBSO 1988 - better tension than earlier performance but muddy recording and playing not very refined.
    Oramo/CBSO 2001 - sound thickens in denser passages. Superb performance, this could have been the one but in finale the microphones really pick up the sound of double bass bows slapping into the instruments - that or someone is breaking funiture next to the stage! I cannot believe this sound would have been so apparent in real life.

    Any others worth hearing? has anyone heard the Berglund set with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe?
     
    alanbeeb, Aug 5, 2004
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  2. alanbeeb

    GrahamN

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    My favourite is the Oramo you mentioned above. I also have Colin Davis' Boston set on LP. I think this is one of the less successful pieces in the set though - Davis is stunning in the sparer sounding pieces (like 3, 4, 6 and 7), but doesn't let himself go enough for me in the more romantic 1,2 and 5. I also have the Gibson/LSO version from 1959. This is a very good performance (although again a bit more reserved than the Oramo), but does have a lot of tape hiss, which rather spoils it for me. Other candidates (that I've not heard) would be Vanska (although he does tend to the very slow), and as you say Berglund. I heard a stunningly good live 5 from Berglund a year or so ago. If you're after the ultimate in clarity and detail (without Rattle's tendency to rip the music apart) that would seem a good place to look.
     
    GrahamN, Aug 5, 2004
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  3. alanbeeb

    djc

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    I really like the Osmo Vänskä/Lahti Symphony Orchestra version on BIS. Neither the interpretation nor the sound are over-glamorous but the recording is spaceous and extremely natural to my ears. What the audience hears rather than what the conductor hears. The strings are a little thin but...[insert icy nordic cliche here]. This would be a contender for the anti-Karajan S5. The coupling of the final 1919 version with original 1915 version of the symphony is a 'must have'. The evolution is fascinating.

    Gramphone (Stephen Johnson) was not terrible enthusiast about the Berglund, FWIW.
     
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    djc, Aug 5, 2004
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  4. alanbeeb

    alanbeeb Grumpy young fogey

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    GrahamN - do you hear the noises in the finale of Oramo's recording? i find them just too annoying!
     
    alanbeeb, Aug 5, 2004
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  5. alanbeeb

    GrahamN

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    I'll have to have another listen - but as they are not high up in my conciousness I clearly don't find them annoying (although I'm sure I'd have heard them if they are there).
     
    GrahamN, Aug 5, 2004
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  6. alanbeeb

    GrahamN

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    OK - just listened to all three of my versions. If you're referring to the clattering aroud 2'20-2'45 in the Oramo, yes it's there and I did notice it the first time I heard it, but no it's never worried me, and I actually rather like it. I may be wrong (or thinking about a different piece altogether) but I'm not sure it's not marked to be played like that in the score. It's certainly most pronounced in the Oramo, but it's also fairly noticeable in the Gibson, but not at all in the Davis/BSO. I'm also pretty sure Berglund got the LPO basses to play it with the same clattering at the festival hall. I notice the gramophone reviewer also baulked at Oramo dropping the basses by an octave at 7'40 and 8'01 - although now it's pointed out, I quite like that too. Still, why not play it for all it's worth - it's not a particularly subtle movement after all!

    BTW, if you've not got Vanska's 4&1 and 3&2 you really need them. I'm sure there are some glaciers in the world moving faster than he does in 4 and 3, but they are quite breathtaking (conversely 1 is taken at breakneck speed - e.g. 5'40 faster than Davis/BSO - and is amazingly exhilarating).
     
    GrahamN, Aug 6, 2004
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  7. alanbeeb

    alanbeeb Grumpy young fogey

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    I might get used to the noise eventually, its a fine performance otherwise. I listened again to the Karajan last night, it does some magic in the first movement.

    I've got Vanska in 2&3 and 6&7. 3 is far too slow, but 6&7 are both excellent. Superb recordings too. I have always looked out for his 5th but I've never seen it anywhere and its the sort of thing I wouldn't order specially.

    I got the complete Oramo set in HMV the other week for £16.99, quite pleased with it overall as I did not have a recording of the 1st before, and his 3rd is very good too. I find the first symphony too Russian for my liking, although its quite distinctively Sibelius its immature.

    Oramo's Pohjola's Daughter with the 5th is superb, much more sense of story than the Jarvi/Gothenborg on DG I had before. I have not listened to all of the set yet. Only problem with it is I am finding the sound tends to go a bit opaque at the denser passages.

    Have you heard any of Neeme Jarvi's set on BIS from the 1980s? I have one disc with the Historical Scenes and En Saga. The performance of En Saga is completely thrilling from beginning to end, as well as being the best recording quality I have ever heard.

    In 1991 I was working in a record shop in Glasgow, and he came in with Brian Couzens from Chandos, and one of his sons, he was totally charming, despite finding an Estonian music CD in the Russian section and chiding us that it should be in the Scandanavian section! We happened to be playing Jukka-Pekka Sarastre's recording of Sibelius 6 at the time, he shook his head and muttered 'beautiful, but far too slow'.
     
    alanbeeb, Aug 6, 2004
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  8. alanbeeb

    michaelab desafinado

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    My vote goes for Rattle/CBSO (well, I had to say that, it's the only copy I have) :)

    Michael.
     
    michaelab, Aug 6, 2004
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  9. alanbeeb

    GrahamN

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    I heard some of the Jarvi set on LP at Titian's (Pelleas, Karelia overture, Swanwhite IIRC - or maybe it was the Scenes Historique, I forget now). Sound was actually rather nasty - Titian said he preferred the CD versions (which he also has), as the digital edge was harder on the LP!

    I actually like the really slow speed in Vanska's 3. I find it gives it a wonderful authority, that betters even the Davis. I also have a Saraste/FinnishRSO version as well that is quite lightweight in comparison to the other two.

    If you don't like that then maybe Vanska wouldn't do it for you in 4 then - although I find it quite transporting. In a BBC Building a Library, the Vanska came out top, just shading the Oramo, with Davis/BSO coming in 3rd IIRC. I personally really dislike the much-vaunted Karajan in this - lots of angst and all that but just a series of sounds rather than coherent music.

    Jarvi's 2 CDs of Estonian music are pretty good too - particularly Heino Eller's "Aurora", a beautiful romantic tone poem. Lemba's symphony goes on maybe a bit longer than his inspiration though.
     
    GrahamN, Aug 6, 2004
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  10. alanbeeb

    tones compulsive cantater

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    I have only one, a rather splendid old vinyl one from 1971, by the London Symphony Orchestra under Alexander Gibson (yes, that's it playing now).
     
    tones, Aug 8, 2004
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  11. alanbeeb

    PeteH Natural Blue

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    FWIW, I've only got the Davis / Boston set (two Philips Duos), but I'd say it's pretty good.
     
    PeteH, Aug 9, 2004
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  12. alanbeeb

    alanbeeb Grumpy young fogey

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    I have just listened to the original 1915 version, first time since I bought the recording on its original release in mid 90's. Absolutely fascinating, but I'm glad he revised it!

    What was most amazing was that most of the rhythms were the same as final version, but using completely different notes in many cases not just different orchestration! I will look out for Vanska's recording of final version, but only if its cheap as I don't want a duplicate of the 1915 version.
     
    alanbeeb, Aug 19, 2004
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