Best speakers for Jazz & Classical?

Faced with what seems like a multitude of possibilities I would appreciate some advice on my next speaker upgrade to take place in the New Year. I am looking for something that will give me scale, soundstage and dynamics. I listen to 60% jazz, 30% classical along with some acoustic rock and no electronic or dance.
My last speakers were Dyn 52's and were fine at higher volumes but a bit soft and in the box at lower levels. I wonder if they were actually too 'big' for my room, which is 5m X 5m. I live in a terraced house so the speakers need to sound good and lively at medium levels without having to be driven loudly.
I will be using a Marantz CD6000OSE or a Project Expression TT as source and driving the speakers with a 100W Tripath-based digital amp.
I'm looking for something in the region of £500-£750 second hand.

At the moment my thoughts are on -

Triangle Antal ES
ART Stilletto
Dali Ikon

Anyone have any thoughts or recommendations?

 

The Ikon isn't very nice - ponderously slow in the bass and not so detailed. The Stilletto is a nice speaker but quite light in the bass. Miles better than the Ikon however! Haven't heard the Triangle, but I'd certainly point you in the direction of a s/h pair of Audiophysic Tempo 3is if you can find any (maybe a little over budget). Another speaker I'm particularly fond of is the Neat Petite mkIII (though it's a standmount) which is better than the Stilletto and the Ikon by far (but not as good as the Tempo 3i).

However, there are *loads* of speakers out there - and the best bet is to go and hear a few. A good standmount at the £750 price-point ought to outperform a similarly priced floorstander. There are bargains to be had (e.g. the Tempos)

John

 

IME, anything which can truly cope with Classical will breeze through any other genre.

 

Two suggestions. Meadowlark Kestrels (Hotrods or mark II), you'd have to find someone on Audiogon who would send them to you, there are seldom pairs to be had over here. Alternatively I'm a big fan of the Harbeth HL Compact 7's a real gentlemans speaker that makes a blue note sing like a dream!
Rega Ela's can sound wonderful too, but I've never heard them playing big classical

 

Hi,

Tannoy Monitor Red or Gold (if you must also HPD, non of the later series though) preferably in the GRF Horn otherwise York is preferred over Lancaster.

They will need work, that is the enclosures need bracing and re-inforcing, the electrolytic capacitor in the LF crossover needs replacing and it is worth on the Golds and HDP's to seriously clean all switches or even to hardwire past them.

But for large scale classical there is little that is affordable and better. Oh BTW, no point bothering with anything below 12" format for LF, anything smaller just runs out of ability to move air on large scale classical, toy speakers need not apply.

Ciao T

 

I use these and I reckon the would meet your requirements very well.

http://www.audes.ee/index.php?id=1194&tpl=1003

They are actually much better looking in the flesh and sound very good with Jazz and Classical they are dynamic and smooth (in the nicest sense).

Easy to drive too. I might be selling as I have a hankering for something smaller.

 

For the soundstaging aspect I'd look for something with a narrowish front baffle and consider treating the first reflection points in the room, including the ceiling. If you go for standmounts and then later miss some scale due to the absence of low bass notes, you could always supplement with a sub.

 

So your 'Transparence Full range dynamic dipole loudspeaker' would be no good for large scale classical then?

I disagree Thorsten. I don't believe any speaker can recreate the air shifted by a Timpani, a 60 inch bass drum, or a Tuba. I don't think many will recreate the rumble of a 16 or even a 32 foot organ pipe. Lots however can produce a domestically acceptable version. True it will sound truer to life on a small chamber piece or a RVG Blue Note, but it will still sound like an orchestra. At the end of the day hi-fi is smoke and mirrors isn't it? It's making music but not real music making.

I don't think Titians system has 12 inch drivers, but everyone who visits him says he gets closer to the real life orchestra experience than anyone else. Your statement doesn't bear out my experiences or that of others.

 

How about the Living Voice Auditoriums. easy to drive and free sounding, with a truly excellent soundstage, and not a bad stab at bass weight. Especially good for coherent believable small band jazz

 

I second the Audio Physics... absolutely blinding bargain...

 

Hi,

Only with a suitable Sub. They do okay within their actual frequency range, but that is limited to 50....60Hz in room, depending on placement.

Hmmm, "The modest proposal" from my little black book with dual 24" Woofer section (one sealed, one dipole to make a cardiode subwoofer) can certainly come close.

But that is basically the same argument I usually bring against small drivers. That said, you only need to "re-create" the Timpani in a small room, not a large concert hall, that relativates the requirements somewhat. I found that 15" Tannoys manage big Timpanis just fine, only when it comes to 32' unstopped organ pipes do they run into trouble, which is rare outside Saint Saen's 3rd....

No, it does not have 12" Drivers, it has TWO of these per channel.

I had similar comments in my home System, both the current one and the one with 15" Tannoys....

Funny, by citing Titian you actually do... :MILD:

In short, I have heard nothing (that includes among others the Living Voice Avatars and Audio Note E Types and Wilson W/P on big Amplifiers) that uses smaller size drivers and manages convincingly render large scale classical in normal (20-40 squaremeter) listening rooms or studios.

Ciao T

 

Yeah, I have owned Virgo mkIIIs (rrp £4k) and now have Avanti mkIIIs (rrp £7.5k+) yet the little Tempo 3i runs the Virgo very closely indeed, and looks like a baby Avanti. A really nice speaker, and noticeably more detailed than the Stilletto and Stilleto 6. In fact, we tried it up against the £9k Emotions, and though the Emotions were surely better, most of that 'better-ness' was in the bass response, which will always be an area where a much bigger speaker will win. Plus, the Tempo 3i is pretty!



I nearly bought a pair of these until I got the chance of the Avanti IIIs, which are something else indeed!

John

 

So does Titians system have 2x12" drivers? The Tannoys are wonderful speakers, but they are not the most domestically acceptable for everyone. I've heard the Sparks, they're good, but still at that price I'd probably buy the Harbeth's and get those stands Lee's selling for them. They sound great on them. The Meadowlarks work great in my room now, but if I could get a bit nearer to them the Harbeths would be a dream.

 

Wholeheartedly agree.

Richard, Titians system is excellent but there is no shortage of air-movers in his room .

Also there is the slight issue of cost. The Tannoys that 3D is recommending will be a lot lot lot cheaper.

 

Hi,

The Nestorovic System 16 he has got based on the version I am familiar with uses dual 12" woofers per side in a "sub" cabinet with a pair of "satellite" cabinets on each side using 8" Lower Midrange drivers, 5.25" upper midrange and a ribbon tweeter (by the looks of it the Tonigen one which was used in one of the HiFi World Kits), so for the full system:

4 X 12" Woofer 25Hz to 250Hz
4 X 8" Lower Mid 250Hz to 1.2KHz
4 X 5" Upper Mid 1.2KHz to 7KHz
4 X 4" Ribbon above 7KHz

That's a lot square-inch especially in the lower midrange, which is where large scale classical is most demanding and even the LF section is pretty well endowed.

By comparison my own system is dual 12" Sub (active) and my 8" Fullrange drivers per side.

Agreed, on both counts....

But basically, the only thing that get's realism in experience is a lot of radiating surface.

Ciao T

 

My system has two 12" in each subwoofer that means per channel. They both have different mass to "work together". Don't ask me the technical details. All I know is there is a patent on this technical concept.
With this setting nobody had the feeling that the system is missing in bass. Actually there are many people who think that the bass is the strongest part of it. I never missed any bass neither with the lowest organ pipes nor with electronic bass like or example in the 4th Track of Pat Matheny's "Imaginary Day" where Lee noticed bass which he never ever heard in any other system before.

I don't believe thogh that my system is most domestically acceptable for everyone. Placing it in the way it "should work" the satellites are placed about 2 meters from the wall, therefore you need a long room. The satellites could be also put on the subs though...but it is not ideal..
Also I don't believe, my speakers would be considered to get any price for good looking and that any wife would accept them in a sitting room.

Talking about Tannoy, there is one person, who thinks the Westminsters are better than my speakers. He thought that the bass of my system aren't transparent enough therefore they overylay the midrange making it loose details.

 

Hi,

I studied Nestorovic Speakers because they used this "disimilar drivers, one box" principle, which is similar (but not identical) to my D3L2QD Idea. Hence my knowledge about them.

I'd be hard pressed to suggest if the TWR or better "antique" Tannoys in GRF Autograph replicas (I do happen to think that Reds in an GRF-A are MUCH better than the TWR) would outperform the System 16 or not, and what would work work for one person as better might not for another, once you reach that performance level.

I think the "problem" in the bass may be placement/room interaction related, more than to the actual "transparency", sadly the Netorovic woofers are not directional, always "a bad thing", though one very common.

Only big horns like the TWR, GRF-A and Jensen Imperials or dipolar/unipolar systems manage to have enough LF directionality to avoid the worst of these issues.

Ciao T

 

Thorsten, the Nestarovic subwoofers are directional by firing directly into the rear wall, thereby not generating an omnidirectional dispertion pattern.

The person thinking Titian's bass is obscuring midrange detail could easily have listened to an alternative in an acoustic resulting in mid prominence. Nothing makes some instruments sound more tangible than a bit of that!

Anyway, back to the question, I'd try to seek out a pair of Quad's 63's might just stretch the budget but would be an order of magnitude more faithful and timbrally accurate than anything near their price point. Being dipoles, they should both interact less with your problematical room (square) and annoy the neighbours less than alternatives.

 

given that the room of the listener is just 5m x 5m, I'd reccomend he give up on the idea of reproducing the full orchestra, and concentrate on a sound that is good for small scale classical and jazz, and passable at large classical.

Looking at the budget, its just not really viable for things like 12" or 15" speakers.

Bookshelf or small floorstanders then. There's just a million out there.

Living Voice auditoriums, yeah thats good for £750.

Some Proac 1sc's would be a good choice for a small bookshelf.

Someone I know that listens to a lot of jazz does it on Harbeths and Lowther/Fostex type full range speakers.

You could get a new pair of lowther/fostex type speakers for your money.

Here's one I've just been reading about on stereophile for example:

http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/104moth/index1.html

Forget full scale classical on that type of speaker though!!

 

Hi,

Surely you see the logic problem with your statement?

The Subs are still omnidirectional radiators (in fact they are pressure mode transducers, pressure has no direction), they merely play in a PI/2 or even PI/4 envoironment. The lack of directionality with their positioning simply means a lot of room-mode excitation.

Moving them away from the rear wall may improve LF clarity as it then possible to place the Sub near nullpoints of the key room modes.

Interestingly, dipoles (velocity transducers - in other words they modulate air velocity) excite room modes maximally when placed in the rooms center and minmally when placed near walls/corners and monopoles (pressure transducers - in other words they modulate air pressure) do the opposite, placed in the rooms center they excite room modes least and maximally near room boundaries.

The reason is that room walls are pressure maxima / velocity minima for room modes and the room center is a velocity maxima / pressure minima for room modes.

So, the old rule that "Speakers reliably sound best where they do the most visual and spatial damage" holds for pressure mode transducers and is reverse for velocity mode transducers (and somewhere inbetween for mixed mode - in other words unidirectional/cardiode - ones).

Ciao T