Border Patrol or McIntosh, Valve power amp advice needed

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi and General Audio' started by Mike P, Dec 28, 2005.

  1. Mike P

    Mike P

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    Dear All,

    I am new to this forum and would welcome any advice from members regarding a choice of a valve power amplifier.
    I am considering either a Border Patrol 300B SE or a McIntosh MC275 power amp. My CD player is a Wadia 861 and my speakers are Living Voice Avatar OBXR2's. All cabling is Townshend Isolda.
    I gather that the Border Patrol works very well with the Living Voice speakers but I am also tempted by the McIntosh as I gather that this is the power section of the well reviewed MA2275 integrated. I plan to run the Wadia straight into the power amp using the variable outputs.
    Any help much appreciated. Many thanks.
     
    Mike P, Dec 28, 2005
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  2. Mike P

    jtc

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    Mike, I can't really say much about the McIntosh gear as I've never heard it, but I believe that the Border Patrol amps may well be a match made in heaven. I've recently upgraded from a high-ish end Naim setup (52/SC/250) to an Eastern Electric Minimax pre-power (with power amp dutites performed by their 8wpc push-pull design) and I am running a considerably more difficult load than your OBX-R2s (mine are 89dB, 4ohm nom/3ohm lows Audiophysic Avanti mkIII) and I am not running out of steam with the 8wpc Minimax, so I would be surprised if you would need the full power of either of your amps into the 94dB OBX-R2.

    On that basis, it's going to be down to personal preference and budget, and I've only ever read good things about the Border Patrol amps. Pricy, but very good. However, if you fancy saving a lot of money, I would thoroughly recommend the Minimax power amp - £1000ish new, and in my experience 95% of an £8k BP power amp, and frighteningly good.

    It really depends on how much that last 5% means to you...

    John
     
    jtc, Dec 28, 2005
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  3. Mike P

    Petergc

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    Border Patrol is definitely a great match. You might also try Canary. Kevin at Living Voice is keen on these, and I have heard them sounding great. Of course, there is always the Kondo route......
     
    Petergc, Dec 28, 2005
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  4. Mike P

    alexs2

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    Border Patrol amps are beautiful,albeit relatively low powered in the traditional SET sense,but rather different from the Macintosh designs.
    As has already been said,the Living Voice's would go very well inded with a BP amp,but at that sort of price level,you'd need to listen to and decide first before shelling out the cash...
     
    alexs2, Dec 28, 2005
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  5. Mike P

    Stereo Mic

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    IME the 300BSE doesn't have the guts to really drive the OBX - you need a P20 or S20 for that. The McIntosh had no problem what so ever, although it does not offer that 300b glow in the midrange. Overall, the McIntosh was, IMO, the better of the two options, and was also preferred to a Canary 300B PP amp.
     
    Stereo Mic, Dec 28, 2005
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  6. Mike P

    bottleneck talks a load of rubbish

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    Mike, you're a man after my own heart chap. :)

    I ran an 8w border patrol into some avatars, and enjoyed it immensely. The bp amps have detail and dynamics like you wouldnt believe. I like bass, and I like LOUD music... with a couple of recordings I could induce clipping with the amp - but it wasn't an easy task.

    Its a matter of prefered presentation really. You'll find a mac and a border patrol to be completely different beasts. I think LV speakers would sound grand with them both, but its a question of personal preference.

    What valve amp you like is a bit like 'what type of beer do you prefer'? and there just isnt a right or wrong answer to it.

    If I had £3,000+ to spend, my personal preference would be neither, I'd be after an amp with the 805 or 211 tube, which will give you 20-25w of single ended power, or 80w or so with a push pull pair. The 845 is an option too.

    The one's I've been oggling of late, are the following three pairs, all avaialble from www.cattylink.com, although as has been pointed out many times you'd need to ensure you get a 240v transformer..

    consonance cyber 211 - 211 single ended
    http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/1205/consonancecyber211.htm

    melody - an 845 push/pull
    http://www.melody.com.au/product/h845w.htm

    mei-xing 300b/845
    http://www.mei-xing.com/doce/pro15.htm



    if you dont want a chinese amp for any reason, Viva do very nice european 845 amps, and of course theres the Kronzilla, with the awesome T1610 tube.

    http://www.kraudioproducts.com/Kr/ProductDetail.aspx?CatID=14&ProductID=116

    http://www.profundo.us/viva/solista/solista.htm
     
    bottleneck, Dec 28, 2005
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  7. Mike P

    Dynamic Turtle The Bydo Destroyer

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    Well, if you have £8k to drop on border patrol kit, you're probably not going to want chinese monoblocks (which are favoured by hard-up audiophools like me :) ) . Can't see many wives happily accepting those 300-845 monos in the living room either!!

    Don't Audion make some nice push-pull 300B's in the £3-£4k price range? Also, Cary Audio makes nice 300B blocks.

    DT

    P.S. Bottleneck, apparently chinese hi-fi can supply a 1Kw 240-220V converter with four ouputs for under £100 delivered. Sounds a bit suspect to me, as I thought this was very difficult to do on the cheap (well certainly 3dsonics implied so)?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 29, 2005
    Dynamic Turtle, Dec 29, 2005
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  8. Mike P

    bottleneck talks a load of rubbish

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    Hi DT

    I did in fact have a Border Patrol amp, but would still prefer the amps mentioned (whether they come from China or not).

    Many people are importing the cheapest Chinese amps directly, but unfortunately not the better ones. I'm sure its just a matter of time before the British buying public realise that there is the valve equivelant of a Lexus is out there, just as there is Mazda.

    When you buy the Consonance Cyber 211 through a UK distributor then the price is comparable with a Border Patrol amp. The saving is in buying direct, but its still about £2,500.

    Audion do make some nice 300b monoblocks, but they aren't something I'd prefer to a Border Patrol, which in turn isnt as much to my preference as a good 211/805 amp.
     
    bottleneck, Dec 29, 2005
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  9. Mike P

    bottleneck talks a load of rubbish

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    3dsonics works with the UK distributor of Chinese brands. There is an interest there in preservation of the British dealer network, and not buying directly. I take comments made with a huge pinch of salt.

    Having said that, I'd take to heart his reccomendations for insisting on a 240v transformer. Im sure this is something that you can get if you put your foot down.
     
    bottleneck, Dec 29, 2005
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  10. Mike P

    Mike P

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    Hi Everyone,

    Many thanks for your advice and especially to Bottleneck for the info on other potential valve amp choices. I am planning to do some listening in the New Year and will almost certainly go to Definitive Audio and speak to Kevin as it was from him that I bought the Living Voice's. I don't think that he stocks McIntosh though so that could be more difficult. I will post findings here in due course.

    Best wishes for the New Year to all.

    Mike
     
    Mike P, Dec 29, 2005
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  11. Mike P

    badchamp Thermionic Member

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    Audion do indeed ! I have some parallel single ended types which put out about 22 watts per monoblock. They can be a little heavy on less than robust 300b (Svetlana's eg) and are, inevitably, built to a price, they're not perfect, maybe slightly rolled off at the top but I'm very happy with mine ( 2 slight problems in 7 years) and with the gold top and cherry side panels they look superb. :)

    Can often pick MK1 versions up for well under a grand s/h nowadays (without the aesthetic trimmings)

    Jeff
     
    badchamp, Dec 30, 2005
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  12. Mike P

    Dynamic Turtle The Bydo Destroyer

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    BTW, I've heard that the 300B ideally needs to be driven by something "meatier" than dual triodes (ie 12AX7). IIRC the audion 300B's use these, rather than 6NS7/6SL7?

    What's the deal here, as I see lots of 300B's with 12AX7 drivers and lots with 6LS7 drivers. What difference do they make?

    DT
     
    Dynamic Turtle, Dec 30, 2005
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  13. Mike P

    alexs2

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    5687 seems to do the job adequately...you just need something that will generate an adequate voltage swing without the driver being pushed to it's limits.
     
    alexs2, Dec 30, 2005
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  14. Mike P

    Paul V

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    Mike

    When you listen to the BP amp with Kevin don't discount it if you don't think it's for you without trying different types of 300B's first. There was quite a deal of difference between the Western Electrics and the Golden Dragon mesh plates when we were auditioning the P21. We ended up going for the mesh plates, which were also a whole lot cheaper...

    BP amps are beautifully put together and you'll never want to part with it !!. Do look at Kevin's other offers though, there might be something cheaper there that really fits the bill.

    Yours ever

    Paul
     
    Paul V, Jan 3, 2006
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  15. Mike P

    badchamp Thermionic Member

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    Roughly what differences did you find ?

    Thanks
    Jeff
     
    badchamp, Jan 3, 2006
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  16. Mike P

    Paul V

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    Jeff

    They just sounded more of an all-rounder to us. Bought the amp a year ago so can't recall exact differences, but I would have streched to WEs if they were night and day better in our system, so they clearly weren't...They're well worth trying, especially if you need four.

    Paul
     
    Paul V, Jan 3, 2006
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  17. Mike P

    Dynamic Turtle The Bydo Destroyer

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    There's a pair of these on eBay at the moment which look quite tempting: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5850356681&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MEWA:IT&rd=1 However, the seller isn't sure if they're PSE or PP!! (A warning sign perhaps?), nor does he know how old they are (probably been on the eBay merry-go-round for years).

    These issues aside, can anyone foist comments, good or bad, upon these 300B monoblocks (in the context of VFM @ £900-£1k.).

    The pre/drivers look a little small to me (6922 & 5687 as opposed to 6NS7 & 6LS7 on the chinese 300B PP's) and there do not seem to be any rectifiers anywhere?

    The power transformers must be very small to fit in the rear of the chassis - not a good sign IME :confused:

    Thanks,
    DT
     
    Dynamic Turtle, Jan 5, 2006
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  18. Mike P

    badchamp Thermionic Member

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    Well they certainly look like mk1 to me. So I guess more than 4 years old at best. The "hot Rod" tubes are the original tubes it would have been sold with.

    The only indication on mine as to whether theyre pse or pp is I think a sticker on the base.

    Rectification is solid state. I understand the transformers are OK but nothing special.

    Must say I'm not very knowlegeable about amps etc so can't really comment on 5687/6922 issue but changing them does makes a huge difference. I was recommended to try some 6CG7 instead of the 6922 (I had some Amperex NOs Orange globe - not exactly cheap) but the 6cg7 are to my ears preferable (cheers T) and a hell of a lot cheaper!

    I haven't heard a lot of other valve amps but at the demo where I bought mine they were far far superior to the others. Mind you elsewhere I did hear a pair of Trilogy 948 amps (6550 valves I think) which were'nt bad but didn't have the "they are here" factor that the Audion's have.

    I would think at around 7/800 they're probably a reasonable buy, certainly are better amps out there but beware 4 x 300b is expensive and I'd always try and hear a pair first. If you're London way and fancy a listen PM me.

    Cheers
    Jeff
     
    badchamp, Jan 5, 2006
    #18
  19. Mike P

    Dynamic Turtle The Bydo Destroyer

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    A sticker on the base? That's a bit silly. Anyhow, even if they are PSE, 18wpc should be enough, so PP would be a bonus. Given the price point, I'm not surprised if the transformers are of average quality, though I'd like to know how & why you have developed this view of them?

    Any valve amp I buy will eventually have the tubes swapped out for NOS jobbies (unless they're of sufficient quality to begin with). Please don't remind me how expensive 300B's are again - this is one of the reasons why I'm tempted to drop over to the 845/211 camp.

    I'm actually having quite a difficult time deciding what monoblocks to go for. Been very distracting actually. The UK/EU stuff in my budget (like the silver nights) seems a little compromised, the chinese blocks have the voltage issue, SET's aren't powerful enough, 300B's are too expensive......

    Been an absolute nightmare :(

    Thanks for the offer of a demo. You have quite a nice system by the looks of it. Particularly interested to hear the MFA & Von Schwiekerts. I live in Rotherhithe, so getting to you would be no problem, particularly if your on the jubille line.

    Rgds,
    DT
     
    Dynamic Turtle, Jan 6, 2006
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  20. Mike P

    badchamp Thermionic Member

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    Rotherhithe !!

    My office is at the Tunnel roundabout so not far.

    Unfortunately the system is at home - the other end of the jubilee line :D

    Most of what I know about the tech details of the amps came from T when he was checking them out for me the other week.

    Jeff
     
    badchamp, Jan 6, 2006
    #20
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