Concertino & Concerto

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi and General Audio' started by alanbeeb, Jan 26, 2005.

  1. alanbeeb

    alanbeeb Grumpy young fogey

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    As part of my quest to find a pair of small footprint speakers with small space requirements that can take the place of my Quads I yesterday got a loan of a pair of Sonus Faber Concertinos. I've so far tried AVI pro-nines (fantastic imaging and analytical but just a touch bright for me) ATC 7 (disappointing in big scale music) and ATC 12 (excellent and probable contender)

    I was quite gobsmacked by how good the SF Concertinos were. I was expecting its relatively small volume to mean it would struggle with orchestral music but it didn't. Imaging was superb, bass extension very evident and tight, tonally slightly brighter than the dark ATCs, but most impressive was the incredible sense of air from the music, the feeling of music breathing in a living space. It may be just because they are new to me, but I was beginning to think that this might be outperforming the Quads! :eek:

    So I took them back to the shop today and asked if I could try their bigger brother, the Concertos. No problem, thank you Loud & Clear. I was fully expecting them to be even better, with more bass and more warmth from the bigger driver and cabinet.... but not the case, which i find a bit strange.

    Its almost as if they sound like a smaller speaker than the Concertino... they do ultimately have an ability to play deeper bass but the balance is much colder and harder than the Concertino and the superb soundstage they had provided is not such a strong feature with the Concertos. Imaging is good, but I found the Concertinos much more "close your eyes and you can almost touch it".

    Does anyone else have xperience of these speakers and what are your thoughts on them?
     
    alanbeeb, Jan 26, 2005
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  2. alanbeeb

    Fen Dancer Two left feet

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    When I went shopping for speakers, I ended up listening to Concerto home's and loved them - ended up buying some SF Grand Pianos second hand and love them even more. One speaker brand I have heard since which impressed me was Dali, both standmount and floorstanders.
    Well worth a listen.
     
    Fen Dancer, Jan 27, 2005
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  3. alanbeeb

    alanbeeb Grumpy young fogey

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    I have got the ATC SCM 12 back today, and definitely prefer it to the Concerto.... not sure about the concertino, need to get it back in again and compare with the SCM 12.
     
    alanbeeb, Jan 27, 2005
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  4. alanbeeb

    michaelab desafinado

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    I've heard the Concerto Homes in a friend's system and was very impressed. OTOH I've heard the Grand Piano's in a number of setups and been singularly unimpressed. For me it's the worst speaker that SF make by quite some margin (those I've heard include: Concerto Home, Concerto, Electra Amator II, Cremona Auditor, Stradivari).

    Michael.
     
    michaelab, Jan 27, 2005
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  5. alanbeeb

    adam

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    I used to have some Concertinos homes,used with Copland valve amp,very nice speaker,great imaging,well out of the box sound,didn't like the treble too much,a bit grey for me,in the end I missed scale from them,and thought the B&W midrange was clearer.
     
    adam, Jan 27, 2005
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  6. alanbeeb

    wolfgang

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    Judging from the comments from everyone else there seem to be a lack of consistency. Maybe it is the variable rooms, arrangements and individual taste.

    Did you still have the Quad ESL with you when you got the AVI Pronine on loan? The AVI are my main toys for the last few years but still dream of of owning those legendary Quad one day. Never had a chance to compare them side by side in the same room yet. There is also The Wife to convince they are really not that big and ugly. Judging from your comment I guess they don't really have the same tonal character then (that you would use as the front speakers in a 5.1 system)?
     
    wolfgang, Jan 27, 2005
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  7. alanbeeb

    alanbeeb Grumpy young fogey

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    I think that is probably the main factor. All my comments should be prefaced with "in my environment"

    I've still got the Quads 988s - now boxed up in the garage so did not get a chance to directly compare. On memory, I'd say the Concertino had the closer tonal character to the Quads.

    I hope to get them out of the garage one day.... but realistically I may be better off selling them and buying a 2nd hand pair again when a) buy a lottery ticket and win, and build a house with truly dedicated room (like I had until kiddo arrived) or b) kid grows up - could be years away... and Mrs Beeb is talking about no.2! :eek:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2005
    alanbeeb, Jan 27, 2005
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  8. alanbeeb

    wolfgang

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    If that is the case I might check those or the ATC out on day.

    If I may ask what is the real problem with trying to mix a pair of Quad and a small kid (ask the ignorant-newly-married-man-with-no-children)? They do not have tempting fragile tweeters to poke in. And they look very steady on their broad base. With top heavy loudspeakers placed on top of their high stand one would imagine if they were not screws on tightly they could either fall off or topple easily if the stands base are not wide enough.
     
    wolfgang, Jan 27, 2005
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  9. alanbeeb

    Lawrie

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    Hi Alan,

    Your observations of the Concerto Home speakers vs the Concertinos are spot on. However, I have seen instances where friends chose the Concertos over the Concertinos as the former produced the more grown-up sound when mated to their amplifiers – that synergy thing again. Also, the Concertos Home speakers (as opposed to the original Concertos) were designed with Home Cinema in mind.

    However, if you like what Concertinos did and would like an all round improvement, in the treble, mids, bass, presence, realism etc then look no further than the Signums. These speakers are no longer made so you'll have to track down second hand examples but they are superb. If you have the Signums, then the Auditors would represent a sideways move as the Auditors are not that much better than the Signums. The Signums also sound much better than the Grand Piano speakers as I auditioned them side by side. The Grand Pianos can sound good but IMO, they tend to do so only with well designed tube amps and in decent sized rooms. Anyway, here are a few comments about the Signums.

    http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=speakers&n=19663&review=1 & http://www.audioreview.com/Main Speaker/Sonus Faber/PRD_120596_1594crx.aspx



    Enjoy the music,

    Lawrie.:D
     
    Lawrie, Jan 27, 2005
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  10. alanbeeb

    alanbeeb Grumpy young fogey

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    The problem, alas, is not the delicacy or size of the quads, its the sheer amount of space they need to work properly. Although they can go reasonably close to a side wall (depending on how little toe-in there is) they needs at least 4ft clear space behind them to sound good. I estimate I'm losing about 25 sq ft of the room to them. And it has to be totally clear space, even a narrow set of bookshelves on one side caused the sound to go completely off-balance.

    The hifi room is becoming more a play room and family room, mainly since it has patio doors onto a deck and out to the back garden with a view out over the woods behind. So its getting more family use, and the Quads just dominate it and make it awkward to use. I have thought about moving the hifi to the main living room which is much bigger but has other problems - its directly under the kids bedroom and the floors have almost no sound insulation, and you can hear the central heating pump in it, which is OK when watching TV or talking but would an annoyance for proper music.

    Yes, the Quads are probably more robust and kid-proof than moving cone speakers, but I will have whatever one I choose blu-tak'd onto very heavy target R3 stands. With all the speakers I've tried so far, the whole thing is very rigid and I estimate she would have to be a lot older before she could knock it over, buy which time she will hopefully not want to!
    Grilles will have to stay on. The walnut/leather finish of the Sonus Faber might not be the best mix with kids though. The ATC is designed to keep the grilles on, and it more utilitarian finish may not attract so much attention or heartbreak if there is damage.
     
    alanbeeb, Jan 27, 2005
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  11. alanbeeb

    wolfgang

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    Hmmm.....interesting. I will be watching the Wife carefully. Come to think of it she is very keen in chillies suddenly, should I be worried yet? BTW I just thought of the Quad L speakers. They came out just after I just bought the Pronines so never actually bring them back for a more carefully listen but those 11L and 12L in the shop make a nice sound. Are they not meant to be voice as a close approximation of the ESL?
     
    wolfgang, Jan 27, 2005
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  12. alanbeeb

    Saab

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    I am automatically suspicious of speakers that have expensive clothes,I just wonder how much money was spent on the hidden important bits
     
    Saab, Jan 28, 2005
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  13. alanbeeb

    alanbeeb Grumpy young fogey

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    I know what you mean.... but the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and both the SF speakers are very good, although I seem to prefer the cheaper one.

    The manual for the SFs gives lots of examples of positioning and how the frequency response curve will alter accordingly, including getting warmer if speakers are placed lower. However, that would mean getting the dedicated SF stands which are something like £350 - ouch!
     
    alanbeeb, Jan 28, 2005
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  14. alanbeeb

    alanbeeb Grumpy young fogey

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    I have not heard the Quad 11L and 12L... I've more or less excluded speakers with rear ports from my short list as intuition says they will want decent amount of space behind them. -

    Wolfgang - you are in Edinburgh are you not? If you want to try the ESL 988 you would be welcome to borrow them for a bit, subject to ease of transportation and promises to be good to them!
     
    alanbeeb, Jan 28, 2005
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  15. alanbeeb

    greg Its a G thing

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    One speaker I would definitely suggest you try to audition (if you can find a pair) is the Ruark Epilogue Reference. Small, great imaging, lively forward sound but not bright, decent bass extension (for their size).

    I owned a pair of Signums which were "better" (IMO) in some ways (slightly purer top end and slightly greater low end extension), but the Epi R (has to be the R version) punched as hard if not harder and really shone for imaging, foot tapping qualities, engagement factor and value for money!

    For their size and cost I think they're outstanding (again IMHO). I personally consider them to be a real hidden gem, but they can be hard to track down as Ruark no longer produce them. You can expect to pick up a used pair in the more expensive (and beautiful) yew veneered cabinet for around £250 (original RRP £450 I think). I have a pair but they are certainly not for sale.
    G
     
    greg, Jan 28, 2005
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  16. alanbeeb

    JackOTrades

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    As Greg knows, I have a pair of Signums and I must say that you need a bit of power to drive them (esp if we're talking about solid state amplification).

    However, I wouldn't swap them for anything this side of a Amati Homage. Honestly, I think I can go through many upgrades in everything in my system before I feel the need to upgrade them.

    I second everything Lawrie said. Of course, they are hard to track down and they might not suit your taste or your system. But if you liked the Concertinos, and you manage to find one of these, try them! And I'm afraid the original speaker stands really make a substantial difference to the sound. Try it, but I think you'll find that you want a pair of stands too. They sometimes go up on ebay or audiogon. There is quite a following of SF stuff in the US, and Audio Asylum is a good place to find info on SF gear.

    Hope this helps,
    Jack
     
    JackOTrades, Jan 31, 2005
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  17. alanbeeb

    Paul V

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    Alan

    Have sent you a PM, contact me if you want a pair of Concertinos.

    Paul
     
    Paul V, Feb 3, 2005
    #17
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