Dance of the Seven Veils

Well guys we had that Nice chap Steve M and his Seven Veil speakers on demo today at Chez rock 'n' roll, Robbo and Timpy in attendence as well.
2 full range units and a double sub, on display.
Inital feelings, Very good sub (almost seemless), speaker intergration, nice mid band, and a good musical communicator, very Pratty too
Kit used Wadia's doing the source, belcanto kicking the drivers about, Steve's amps doing the subs, a few GWS I/c's some O/A speaker cable, plus an A/R x/over.
Didn't really shine in my system, Placement probs, sorted, removed plinths, more placement. I strongly suspect,a good Valve amp set up will bring these babies to fruition, as well maybe a good naim set set up, due to the speakers attributes and design criteria
For me personaly, not enough head room, detail was 'not there', or just not as obvious, and dark too.There arn't that fast or dynamic as I'm used too, but that doesn't make them bad speakers, they did show glimpes of what they are capable of. A very musical and entertaining sound for sure with good bass that is close to being spot on in the timing stakes but they arn't my sort of speaker, however I'm just different and what I look for in a noise maker, these don't deliever (for me), they do however deliever in the other area's very well, I feel the Shahinna arc Boys will love em'
I'll do more later man I need a beer WM

 

Having finished the wine and hit the whiskey I'll take a shot at this. I need to hear WM's system to get where he's coming from, but I guess I'm not surprised. The Nonsuch are not big heavy rock speakers. They do detail, jazz, prog rock, chamber, orchestral stuff. I'm not sure how they'd cope with Rammstein but that will be under test soon. They are fast but maybe that is dependent on system, music and the person listening .

You know I think they work well with Naim. In fact if Naim could make speakers these are what they'd make. Shahinian? Yes I can see the attraction. What really surprised me was how similar a good valve setup was to Naim with these speakers.

At the end of the day not all speakers suit all systems but these are worth a listen.

 

To be fair, Tony's system is a bit of a rockers system that majors on loudness, dynamics, speed, impact and that 'being at the concert' feeling so the nonsuch speakers were never going to be a great match as they just dont have the power handling for that sort of thing. However, they have other strengths which make for a very musical and seductive listen. I will give a more detailed impression tomorrow as I am too tired to do it now

Cheers, Neil

 

I can't say I am surprised WM, the ethos for the design would seem to be totally at odds with your stated system requirements.

Now if you want some more dynamics, I feel you will have to have a listen to the new Tungsten subs when they arrive next week With 1kw of class d power and 97db efficiency, I feel it will be an experience not to miss

Could you go into greater detail regarding Steve's creations? I suspect that they have limited power handling, possibly as a result of running the Bandors full range rather than installing a high pass at say 200hz. Still, I'm sure this would have a negative affect on what they are no doubt excellent at. How did you find the HF detail and extension using full range drivers?

I still find Steve's ideas of great interest. I just suspect that they are aimed at the non headbangers amongst us

 

Ok, now refreshed Stowford press, the only thirst solution.
First up a big big thanks to Steve, for making the long Journey to west country, a genuine ethusiastic guy, who knows what he likes, and has an open mind, which is a recepie for ongoing success and drive.
Well Steve first acquainted himself with the system au natural, he span the sugar hill gang, lou reed to grab a basic feel for things, after he listened for a while, he Quipped 'It was Nice meeting you' ill be off'
So we in came the gear, in one sod off flight case 'Robbo' wondered if it used to conatin the odd lost russian rocket launcher Steve brought along his Double awesome dual sub, and the N 4's towers, now these aint ugly, in fact very kisch, well engineered and almost formal looking, the subs (stacked on top of one each other) looked very neat, and easily would be 'lost' in a room as anything other than subs, great looking too.
Steve also brought his Acustic research x/over and 2 crimson amps to power the subs, the B/c could have easily delt with the subs, but due to input constraints and x/over configuration (plus my lack of rca 'y' lead not possible on the day)
Well first up, how not too clever, hard in the mids, bit muddled and nausaly almost, open yes, good image and solid density to it as well, bass not bad at all, dark sounding too, we play about with toe in etc, better but still no bannana, Steve suggested way into the room, so we did, arh touch more detail and forward now, still not right.
We went outside for a think, ok next up remove the Plinths, humm now thats better, far better in the mids, less couldy vocals thinned out, and recessed slightly, but sounded better for sure (due to Merlins great box of tricks, we know that WM's room, is .4m/s faster on the left hand side (roughly 1.5 inches further back on the L/H speaker) so we repotioned the speakers accordingly and wow much better, getting nice and flowy?? is there such a word as that?, well **** it we'll use it anyway Nice timing from the subs, one of the best I've heard for sure, still the bass wasn't as fast of a s tight as I have, but that can be fixed no probs
Next up we replaced the in house i/c with an Omiga Audio one, arh now this lifted them more, quite good even, steve finialy sat down and we just played music, just about every thing from Jar wobble to Ozrics, quite natural sound too, but too dark for me, and the upper frequency extension, is 'some what' curtailed to how I'm used too as well.
We also swopped the Wadia for the Rega as transports : oh dear, , returning quickly to the music, Steve was surprised by the difference.
Now these are very musical with great timing bass, and good mid band voicing Steve used the words 'Mid range to die for', I wouldn't use those words, I've heard some what better for sure, however not in this sort of package, IE a musical one, yes there quick, fast hummm, depends on what you use as reference, there are neat and well proportioned and easily fit in most rooms for sure, as is the sub Steve did switch the subs off, boy they do a lot of the work, and very well too.
These are good speakers, and in the right system will sing damn well, not for me, the qualities I look for, arn't the Seven veils strong points, Realistic levels/total scale/Dynamics/slam/due to speaker designs the lack of upper detail' but these may not be important for any one else, they can however make you lost in the music, and not worry too much about things at all, which is a very rare quality for any speaker to have
It's just a matter of personal style and what you are used to, maybe I've been spoilt
However I can agree whole-heartly that these speakers are worth the time and trouble to home audition, for a lot of people these will fore fill their needs, mine however are just different. WM

 

No Tony, you have been deafened

Seriously, good write up, and for those of us familiar with your tastes, a good guide to the characteristics.

FWIW, the more I play around, the more I find that overt treble detail leads to an unnatural presentation to my ears. For all your systems strengths, I still find the treble performance a tad intrusive for my tastes. I tend to find that rolling off above 8khz, gives a more musical and natural presentation. Similar observations might explain the popularity of Avalon's larger speakers along with Logans and the like. People say these speakers sound dark or rolled off. Well in comaprison to many they do, but the naturalness of the midrange, and therefore the emotional impact with acoustic music is enhanced for most of us.

I know I am not alone on this, some other forum members simply cannot do sparkly treble, for me it's a big no no. For those looking to reproduce the live feel of a PA or dance system however, this unnaturalness may well represent nirvana.

 

Merlin, there is a difference between 'Overt treble' which I don't have, and not a lot at all above 10K, there design I feel favours naim, as it's 'Overt treble' would be rolled off, leaving a far more acceptable sound.
They are not inoffensive, and the do give great music no quibble, although you know they are a metal based driver, they don't show the charactoristic that are normaly assoccatied with them, once settled they were pretty good and will be a good match for a lot of systems looking for that more musical approach, and top notch intergration too. WM

 

Hi guys

I'm completely gone for the night so, if it's ok with you all, I'll come out to play tomorrow.

Just to say I had a great time today. Good to meet the 'names behind the flames' :just kidding: and many thanks to w-m, Robbo & Timpy.

Will report later. Got to s-l-e-e--------------------------------------p

 

Are you admitting your system isn't musical then

 

I think that very much depends on the kind of music you listen to. For small scale acoustic music, jaz, female vocals etc, that is probably the case. But if you like rock/pop/dance with a more lively presentation I think a more extended treble can be quite desirable (as long as it is not distorted/harsh)

For example the smoothness of the Audio Research valve amp I have had at home for a few days is absolutely knockout with well recorded small scale acoustic music and female vocals, but it leaves me rather unmoved with the rock/dance/indie music which makes up about 90% of my collection. For this I much prefer the slightly more explicit and faster treble of my dpas as they connect far better emotionally with this type of music and have the bass drive and timing I like.

 

Oh dear Better dig out the old "loudness" curve for you to listen to Seriously, I guess it's the old personal preference thing, but I just cannot stand treble that I become aware of anymore, it just seems unnatural to me. Gets in the way of the music for me.

Interestingly, again for me, by attenuating the HF, I can listen to CD's at the same levels as the vinyl without it biting my ears off. This has the affect in my setup of giving Cd much of the TT's bass weight and slam which I like. I am of course lucky that I can switch between the two presentations using the remote control, so can have different settings for alternative genres.

 

Oh Shit !!! Tom you got me :laser: Curses, I've been rumbled, how did you know I put Wadia badges over my M/F stuff :grrr:
.

 

Hi-fi, what a game, eh? It was good to spend a day playing it in the company of w-m, Robbo and Timpy.

As soon as I heard wm's Wadia/Belcanto/Meadowlark system it instantly struck me how different systems can do completely different things, sound completely different yet still both be described as good. Certainly w-m's system had plenty of slam and dynamics and sounded very impressive indeed.

I had to smile though. When I'd visited Meadowlark's beautiful web site I had this image of delicate speakers with names like Swift, Swan, Kestrel and Heron. The sound that w-m has achieved was a shock to me in this regard. Let me assure you that if any swifts, swans, kestrels or herons had been flying over Cheltenham when Tone powered up they would have plummetted from the sky and been dead long before they hit the ground.

Back to the listening and we placed the Nonsuch 4s on w-m's marble slabs, put a cd on the Wadia and sat back to listen.

A-a-r-g-g-h-h !

Awful, there was a harshness in the mids plus a lack of clarity and general imbalance. It wasn't what I was expecting. The only familair aspect was that the imaging was still good and the subs were performing ok and integrating well.

I tried moving the full-range speakers - back, forward, in, out, toe-in more, tow out more - and this brought some minor changes but we still weren't making music. After a while, I went out for a cigarette break and w-m and I decided that we might as well try removing the marble slabs. Ok, that was better, some of the harshness disappeared and the general balance was improved.

When Tone substituted his own cables for the "costs more than I can afford just to breathe the air around these incredibly expensive" cables, there was a further improvement. The sound was less thin, warmer and fuller. That's not to say I wouldn't like to hear the very expensive cables with Seventh Veil speakers, just not in that system.

And that was as good as we got. Were we making music? Yes, I think so. Was it world-class? No.

Replacing the cd transport with my familiar Planet 2000 made a big difference. Unfortunately, in the wrong direction. Wadia-Master's Wadias did things differently. In fact, b*ll*cks to political correctness, they were far, far better. Different class. It was difficult to tell with the set up we had as my speakers weren't sounding quite their familiar selves but I believe that w-m's cd playing system is as good as anything I've heard.

So that leaves the Belcantos. I would love to listen to them with my subs but we didn't have the right leads to try this. Still, judging by the sound made by the Belcanto with the Meadowlarks they have slam, speed and control a-plenty.

They're just not the right amps for the Nonsuch 4s. They didn't work properly together, particularly in the mid-range. I guess it's one of those synergy things. The Nonsuch 4s work with the better valve equipment. They work with some high end solid state (like the Sugden Masterclass). They work with high end Naims (shock, horror). They don't do Belcanto. Mind you, even if they did, they wouldn't be the right speakers for Tone. We're looking for different things. I honestly wouldn't say that there's a right or wrong here just different. For myself, it may be useful to keep the Belcanto/Meadowlark combo in mind just in case I ever lose my sense of hearing or reason

As for the cd player though. I want one.

Steve

 

I feel we had a great day on the whole, a nice learning process on how you can change a systems sound, with fairly big out comes, by not doing too much
It's a case hear of 'as you like it', I like it as I have it I think for Steve's style of presentation, a Valve pre-amp instead of direct from the dac, would be a decent middle ground, I prefer the Direct alive approach, as opposed to more valvey thing, I'm too young for that (not pipe and slippers either)
Intresting also how a certain kinds of coluartion suit, a particular style of presenation more.
The speakers do make music very well, and a lot of guys will really warm to them, for me I want more than they give, so for me they're not, but for you maybe the prefect partner in your sonic nirvanina.
Steve is a honest hifi guy too, a total rareity in this Business' and if your in the market, for a 'Different kind' of music giver, then Give tha man a call, cuz you never know, these babies may well be your cup of tea.
To be fair, things were far from prefect, with the subs set up, but we made the best of it, and it did start singing towards the end, rather well. WM

 

Well he we go better late than never, a shot of the Seven speakers at Wm's


http://alfatone.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/7V home

 

Ah-ha. I see the problem. There's a lot of extraneous metal between the speakers.

 

Yes thats the crimson and the Acoustic research stuff Tom, you have a keen Eye for routing out rubbish mate.

 

Ah they look cute

thinking about it, did Tom experience the lack of treble detail in his set up as well

Reason I ask is that, as Robbo can confirm, simply extending the bass response from say 35hz to 20hz can have exactly the effect that you attribute to the speakers, when compared with your normal setup.

Certainly with the MA's in place, there was nothing below 32hz in room, and my suspicion would be that the ML's possible roll off slightly higher than that. Nowt wrong with that. But suddenly having bass to 20hz or so will dramatically alter the perceived treble extension.

 

Lack of treble? No. Just the right amount to my ears.

 

Its about time I added a few words to this.

First of all thanks to steve for lugging his speakers and kit all the way to Tonys. Steve is a real decent guy who has a great interest in listening to the music, and has a real passion about his speaker design.

I for one really like the design concept of these speakers, the use of satellites with full range drivers with no crossovers and discretely placed subs in sealed boxes really appeals. They look very neat and tidy and are very domestically acceptable.

Unfortunately, on the day, they were mismatched in Tony's system. due to their relatively modest power handling, they were not able to reveal the strengths of his system, and tony's system arguably wasnt able to fully show the strengths of the 7V speakers. But we still managed to get a glimpse of what they are capable of.

The real strengths of these speakers for me was the timing and the super integration between the satellites and the subs. I have tried to use subs with my speakers and never really got the integration I wanted. These do it superbly. Sealed boxes are the way to go here I feel. Everything we listened to was fast, clean and tidy, with no intrusive one noting or resonances. very musical indeed. The subs didnt seem to go exceptionally deep and Tonys the meadowlarks seemed to have deeper bass, but it didnt matter as what there was was done right.

Imaging was another forte. pulled out into the room a bit more, the speakers disappeared to give a wonderfully deep, open soundstage - nice. I also liked the midrange. Now, I am spoilt here, as my speakers have pretty much the best midrange of any speaker I have heard [Edit - I have thought of a speaker which is better - Wilson WATT/Puppies 5.1]. The 7V speakers are very good, and better than most, with a open and natural balance, with lovely coherence.

Overall, the 7v speakers are very musical and enjoyable to listen to. They have quite a dark balance and gave the impression to me that the treble rolled off early, but measurements would be needed here to ascertain this (as I found out at Merlins).

IMO, they would work best in a valve based system with an analogue front end or a high end CDP. Listeners who have smaller rooms or dont listen at high volumes who value the timing, imaging and midrange these speakers can provide should definately give them an audition.