Did any body see this ?.........thoughts

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi and General Audio' started by zanash, Jan 21, 2007.

  1. zanash

    zanash

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    How CDs are remastering the art of noise


    Albums are getting louder and the sound quality is suffering. Audiophiles and engineers despair of the trend, but who is driving it?

    Tim Anderson
    Thursday January 18, 2007
    The Guardian


    "I can't stand the sound of today's CDs," says Roland Stauber, a 39-year-old music lover who works in the automotive industry. "They sound harsh and loud. I hardly buy new releases any more."
    Music nostalgia is nothing new, but this is different. There are solid technical reasons why CDs mastered today sound inferior to those made 15 years ago. The engineers who make the "master" - the mix from which the CD is pressed - are under irresistible pressure to compromise sound quality.

    Tim Young masters albums at the Metropolis Studios in London. He has impeccable credentials, having worked with bands from the Clash and the Smiths back in the 1970s to Madonna, Iron Maiden and the Sugababes today. "Everyone's chasing immediate impact," he explains. "What happens is all the loud parts of the album have to be as loud as the opening track. So you get a fatiguing effect. There's no light and shade in it."

    Young has first-hand experience of the "loudness wars", where studios compete to make ever louder CDs. "When CDs emerged as a format in the mid-80s, there wasn't a great deal you could do to make them louder. In the first half of the 1990s, various [electronics] boxes started to appear that meant you could get more apparent loudness. Mastering engineers, initially in America, started using these to make CDs louder. The impact travelled across the Atlantic," he says.

    Damaged music

    "In 1992 I did an album for a British heavy metal band. I got a panic-stricken message from their A&R man in America, saying 'We're really worried, the new album, it's not as loud as Aerosmith' or something. That was the start of it."

    Of course, the mastering engineer has no control over how loud a CD gets played. But this is about the volume of the low-level signal encoded on the CD. Artists and record companies hope that louder music will stand out, but in practice the listener may just turn it down. Unfortunately, the techniques used to maximise the volume are damaging the music itself.

    Steve Hoffman specialises in remastering classic rock albums, and he's a vocal opponent of the loudness wars. Asked to comment on recent releases, one from Lily Allen and the other from the Arctic Monkeys, he says: "Everything is loud, everything is bright, there's no subtlety in it at all, it's a sound that one would tire of fairly quickly."

    Why does it sound bad? "A lot of signal processing is in the mastering stage, the type of processing that was almost impossible in the old days of analogue," says Hoffman. "Now you have digital workstations which mercilessly zap all the dynamics out of music. The other problem is overuse of equalisation (EQ). Equalisation done digitally is very harsh, and most mastering engineers tend to overuse it. You just crank up the EQ and then you compress it digitally so everything sounds like a machine gun, and then it all sounds really loud.

    "Unfortunately, once the dynamics are shaved off music, it's impossible to get them back," says Hoffman. "It doesn't matter what volume you're playing at. When everything is loud, it doesn't sound loud any more. The only way that something can sound loud is if there's something quiet that precedes it, or else there's no frame of reference."

    Jason Howse is a sound engineer who has worked with artists including Diva, Faceless and A Guy Called Gerald. Referring to dance music, he said: "You basically want the record as loud as you can possibly get it, because it's going to be played in an environment where level is everything." But why not use the volume control to avoid the loss of dynamic range? "That would be the thing to do," he answered, "but it's just what's demanded from record companies, not from the listener, but from record companies and artists."

    Mastering engineers have little choice. "One of the myths that I'd like to eradicate is that this is all down to mastering engineers going crazy with their controls," says Young. "It's not. It's the artists and the producers who demand it.

    "I had a famous 60s singer who's making a comeback this year. I'd mastered his album and I said, 'What do you think of it?' He said, 'It's great, but it's not as loud as the new Paul Simon. You've got to make it louder'."

    Hitting the wall

    How much does it matter? To a small but vociferous minority it matters a lot. Internet forums buzz with discussions about which older CD or LP release has the best sound as fans seek out the music of their youth.

    "There's nothing wrong with distorted over-limited CDs per se," says Graham Sutton, a musician with Bark Psychosis and a sound engineer. "It's all aesthetics, after all. But what might suit Whitehouse or Merzbow might not be right for Norah Jones. It's now at the point where CDs cannot get any louder, just more distorted.

    "The brick wall has been reached. I wonder how long it will be before the record companies re-re-release their back catalogue, re-re-mastered for additional dynamic range?"

    · Compromised CDs

    Lily Allen
    Alright, Still (Regal, 2006)

    This bouncy pop might sound better if it were not mastered for loudness at the expense of dynamic range.

    Iggy Pop and the Stooges
    Raw Power (Columbia, 1997)

    Remixed by Pop in 1997, this remains among "the loudest CDs ever made".

    Red Hot Chili Peppers
    Californication (Warner, 1999)

    Criticised for excessive compression and distortion. Subject of an online petition calling for a reissue.

    Oasis
    (What's the Story) Morning Glory (Creation, 1995)

    Exceptionally loud album that forced others to compete in volume.

    Rush
    Vapor Trails (Warner, 2002)

    "I can't get into this album at all, it lacks clarity, the songs sound the same," says one user review on Amazon. The overloud mastering may be to blame for this perception.

    Paul Simon
    Surprise (Warner, 2006)

    Even long-established folk stars are competing in the loudness wars, to the detriment of the sound quality.
     
    zanash, Jan 21, 2007
    #1
  2. zanash

    narabdela

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    Sadly it's becoming a general trend.

    Good example here:
     
    narabdela, Jan 21, 2007
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  3. zanash

    tuga

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    The same is happening with pop/rock concerts: excessive loudness resulted in lower sound quality and in more than one occasion the noise was such that I had to cover my ears...

    Overproduced recordings are also very irritating: they may sound ok on the radio (maybe they're balanced for it) or low-fi systems but with a decent stereo it's weird and unnatural.

    I not sure if my 'general' preference for older (AAD) recordings is due to the recording media, the simple production or both. There are some exceptions, of course, but they're hard to find. World/ethnic, jazz (not the mainstream pop-chart kind, though), and some classical don't suffer so much from this.
     
    tuga, Jan 21, 2007
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  4. zanash

    Paul Dimaline

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    It has got to the point now where I rarely buy new music. I dont use CD, just vinyl, much of it secondhand. There is soooo much music out there that I dont have that at my age I have no worries I will ever be stuck for something to buy. It is a great shame that we have to choose not to buy certain recordings but it has come to that. I have a small pile of new records that I will sell when I get around to it, they are simply unpleasant to listen to.

    As music lovers sound quality should not matter. As HiFi enthusiasts it does. I listen to new stuff on the radio or TV nowadays, its just a waste of time and money playing it on any half decent system.
     
    Paul Dimaline, Jan 21, 2007
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  5. zanash

    Tenson Moderator

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    When you guys say 'new music' you must mean pop music? Because I have a pretty 'new' CD collection and the only stuff that actually sounds bad is the commercial stuff.

    Looking down the rack - Black Eyed Peas (latest one), Lighthouse family, Dashboard Confessional (latest one), Stephen Fretwell, Killers, Athlete (latest one), Goo Goo Dolls, The Used, Red hot Chilli Peppers, Avril Lavigne (latest one) ... thats it really out of about 350 CDs or so.

    No the others are not all brilliant, but they are also not bad by any means and some are great.

    Having said that it does seem like it is getting more and more common, hence most of the CDs I said were actually bad, are the latest ones in a groups discography. I am probably just lucky that most of the bands I like are not main stream enough to get concerned over gain wars, but they are still new.
     
    Tenson, Jan 21, 2007
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  6. zanash

    andyoz

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    This is one reason I listen to mostly back catalogue stuff.

    I'd like to add the latest Snow Patrol albumn to that 'loud' list. I borrowed it off my brother-in-law and the constant wall of sound mix really annoyed me. There's some good songs in there somewhere (I think!).
     
    andyoz, Jan 21, 2007
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  7. zanash

    wolfgang

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    Nice link. Explained why some discs sound so irritating after some time. No point keep upgrading when the problem is clearly else way.
     
    wolfgang, Jan 21, 2007
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  8. zanash

    Uncle Ants In Recordeo Speramus

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    Its not a universal trend though. I was listening to Holly Golightly's album, Slowly but Surely earlier (couple of years old) and its got dynamics in spades. Also one of those rare albums where the band can seem almost supernaturally THERE.

    But then although its pop music its not POP music.
     
    Uncle Ants, Jan 21, 2007
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  9. zanash

    oedipus

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    People like distortion...

    Seriously, they do.

    You don't have to look far for electric guitar recording that have huge amounts of distortion - it's pretty much a requirement:)

    As for vocals, you have to look quite hard for voices that are recorded completely "dry".

    Moreover, the resurgence in vinyl can only reasonably be explained by peoples fondness for distortion. Funnily enough, this "pegging the meters" phenomena happened in the 50's with the arrival of jukeboxes, so don't think vinyl is immune:)

    While some of the complaints about modern recordings do stem from incompetence on the production side, most of them are artistic choice and the people involved know what they are doing (or at least thinking of the money).

    For example, as I type, I'm listening to The Black Keys ("Magic Potion"). Their earlier album "Thickfreakness" has a note in the liner saying "recorded in mid fi" (I'm paraphrasing as I don't have the cover to hand). It is, nevertheless, an outstanding album (as is the latest).

    Tenson, I think your right about the general trend - FWIW, Fretwell's album is one of my favourites from last year.

    You should consider yourself a sad sack if you're only interested in listening to "crystal clear" recordings (which show off your hifi). Seriously, go listen to some live music on a PA..
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2007
    oedipus, Jan 22, 2007
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  10. zanash

    rodrat

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    The worst album I have heard is the newish Keene one. The production is so bad you could strip wallpaper. A real pity as I like the songs. After trying to listen we bunged on Joe Fackson and Supertramps greatest hits cd's. They sounded brilliant. (if you like that sort of thing)

    I have tried to play the keene album with valve and SS into a variety of speakers and can only conclude that as its sound ok on the radio it was mixed for this purpose.

    Rod
     
    rodrat, Jan 22, 2007
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  11. zanash

    spev

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    There's a strong argument here for that having nothing to do with recording/mastering...

    The last coldplay album I found unlistenable. Admittedly the songs are awful anyway so god knows why I bought it, but the mix is just terrible.
     
    spev, Jan 22, 2007
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  12. zanash

    andyoz

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    Is that one of Joe Jackson's side projects :D (It's a good albumn that)

    Seriously though, if you take any of the biggie albums of last year - Keane..Coldplay...Snow Patrol, they have a gritty sound that drives me nuts but sounds good on the car stereo. I pity the poor producer/engineers on these albums and they must know better, they have to produce to the sound that the record company exec's want though.
     
    andyoz, Jan 22, 2007
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  13. zanash

    Snoo

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  14. zanash

    Tenson Moderator

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    Its one of mine too, but I don' think anyone could claim it is a great recording.

    Snoo, it strikes me that the waveforms in that link are all compressed and and limited to some degree. Its just that the earlier ones are not normalised to 100%. Though when they start to go into clipping more than a few times in a track it is getting silly.
     
    Tenson, Jan 22, 2007
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  15. zanash

    t1nt1n hifi collector

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    Wow, this explains why I prefer to listen to alot of new music on the radio and TV but find it jarring through the hifi. I thought it was my setup and not the mixes.:eek:
     
    t1nt1n, Jan 22, 2007
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  16. zanash

    PeteH Natural Blue

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    A sad sack, or alternatively a classical music fan. :) Actually that's a bit sweeping - the "sound versus performance" issue does rear its head from time to time and different people will have different ideas of what constitutes "acceptable" sound - but in general, distortion is obviously considered A Bad Thing where acoustically produced music is concerned.

    Furthermore, classical CDs are produced with much wider dynamic range than most others - the commercially-driven loudness war doesn't arise in the quite the same way because nobody buys classical CDs anyway. (Classic FM does usually equalise things very flat though, which produces rather weird effects sometimes.)
     
    PeteH, Jan 22, 2007
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  17. zanash

    rollo

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    Stay away from DSD based recordings as well,especially Hybrid from Telarc.The CD layer isn't up to snuff,seems rolled off and over engineered.
    Tenson GREAT POST well done in deed
    rollo
     
    rollo, Jan 23, 2007
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  18. zanash

    speedy.steve

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    Agree with the fact that some new CD's sound wierd and never get it right.
    Coldplay is my pet hate. They could have been done so well.
    I'd sooner listen to them on the radio.
    Agree about Keane too - mind you, his incessant poor breathing technique puts me totally off anyway.

    Was there a golden time for CD's. Perhaps not just that some sound stunning and others rubbish.

    Perhaps they are just cutting costs on production as they inevitably can for the MP3 masses - It hardly matters through an MP3 player or a Dab radio after all.

    Is there a what sounds good on a proper Hifi guide anywhere?

    Perhaps we should start one?!
     
    speedy.steve, Jan 27, 2007
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  19. zanash

    ben556473

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    This is a very good topic, I must admit that I have noticed the same trend (loudness and brashness) in people over the last ten years or so. Almost two dimensional and singular in purpose with very little depth.
     
    ben556473, Jan 27, 2007
    #19
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  20. zanash

    stevehi-fi stevehi-fi

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    Perhaps members could post short lists(e.g. 5 )of the CDs from their collection that (in their opinion)are recorded /engineered particularly well. I'll start the ball rolling:-

    LISA STANSFIELD-"LISA" Arista 74321458512 (1997)

    JOAN ARMATRADING-"THE COLLECTION" Spectrum554423-2(1998)

    EMMYLOU HARRIS/LINDA RONSTADT/DOLLY PARTON "TRIO II" -Asylum62275-2(1999)

    NEIL DIAMOND- "THE ESSENTIAL NEIL DIAMOND" Columbia C2K85681 (2001)The live tracks are astonishingly good.

    STING- "THE BEST OF" 1984-1994 A&M 540307-2 (1994)
     
    stevehi-fi, Jan 27, 2007
    #20
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