Does too much Bach ruin you for many other things?

Discussion in 'Classical Music' started by tones, Aug 27, 2007.

  1. tones

    tones compulsive cantater

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    OK, an exaggeration, but over the weekend, I put on the recording of Solti's supposedly classic recording of Mahler's Symphony No.8 ("Symphony of a Thousand") - and found I couldn't stand it! Now the failure is clearly mine rather than Mahler's, but I just couldn't face any more of what seemed to me to be totally uncoordinated, random bits and pieces without any discernible pattern. "Too many cantatas!" I thought. Now I don't get this reaction with Beethoven - my beloved Karajan '62 9th still thrills as much as ever And Schubert's "Winterreise" is still wonderful, and Pete Tchaikovsky remains the greatest tune writer in history, but Gus Mahler... Perhaps I'd better go into training for the late romantics.
     
    tones, Aug 27, 2007
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  2. tones

    alanbeeb Grumpy young fogey

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    Even people who like Mahler don't like the 8th. Myself included.

    1st or 4th might be more to your taste.
     
    alanbeeb, Aug 27, 2007
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  3. tones

    tones compulsive cantater

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    I actually do like the first, Alan. A symphony with "Frère Jacques" in it, even played in a minor key, can't be bad!
     
    tones, Aug 27, 2007
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  4. tones

    alanbeeb Grumpy young fogey

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    Have you tried his songs? The 5 Ruckert Lieder especially.
    Also the Songs of a Wayfarer, they use the same themes as the 1st symphony.
     
    alanbeeb, Aug 27, 2007
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  5. tones

    lordsummit moderate mod

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    The resurrection is my current favourite, no 8 I never make it to the end of it
     
    lordsummit, Aug 27, 2007
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  6. tones

    TonyL Club Krautrock Plinque

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    Side 4 of the 9th is where it's at IMO.

    Tony.
     
    TonyL, Aug 27, 2007
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  7. tones

    alanbeeb Grumpy young fogey

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    But....... if Tones thinks the 8th has too much going on, heaven help him with the first movement of the 9th!
     
    alanbeeb, Aug 28, 2007
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  8. tones

    tones compulsive cantater

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    Too many apparently totally unrelated things going on, Alan! I also like No.2 (Resurrection), which has some really impressive, quite spine-chilling stuff. Thanks for the hints on the other stuff, which, I confess, I've never heard. I'll listen out for it.
     
    tones, Aug 28, 2007
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  9. tones

    pe-zulu

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    Tones, I can't talk for you, but in my own case I feel, that the time is better spent in the company of Bach.
     
    pe-zulu, Aug 28, 2007
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  10. tones

    tones compulsive cantater

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    And company doesn't come any better than that!
     
    tones, Aug 28, 2007
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  11. tones

    PeteH Natural Blue

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    It's often said, but only because it's true: Bach just wrote music that was so completely, viscerally satisfying - so utterly inevitable - that there was really no point in those who followed continuing in the Baroque style, because it'd basically have been like Bach, only worse. In a sense it's inevitable that if you listen to a lot of Bach you'll find most other things untidy and contrived - in much the same way that if you listen to a lot of classical music you'll find most pop/rock tame and dull.

    A neat epigram here: Bach quite simply made the practice of music more perfect than it had ever been before, or has been since.

    With all that said I don't actually spend *that* much time listening to Bach; probably the majority of my listening time would be spent closer to the Mahlerian domain. The gutsiness, cohesion and structural drive that arise from the rigorous working-out in Bach can't often be found elsewhere - the question is just whether or not you can learn to live without it, and it's easy to understand why many prefer not to. (And you don't necessarily even have to have heard the Goldberg Variations to find Mahler 8 a bit unfocused!)
     
    PeteH, Sep 1, 2007
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  12. tones

    Marc

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    To me, Bach never ruins anything, he only adds. :)

    But is it true?
    Well, it may be true today, in our visions, in 2007.
    I'm not sure if any composer around 1750 was thinking a lot about the music of Bach. The stile galante already made its way before Bach died. Even Bach himself adapted elements in his later works. Nowadays we consider Bach the greatest highlight of Baroque-style music. At the time practically no one did. No composer of any standing was thinking at July 28th, 1750: oh my God, I can't compose anything in Baroque style any longer, since Bach died today.
     
    Marc, Sep 16, 2007
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  13. tones

    Rodrigo de Sá This club's crushing bore

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    Dear Tones:

    I think Mahler's 8th is rather difficult - I would go as far as to say that it is too difficult and not a successful work.

    That said, when I listen to Bruckner, I often think that Bach was able, within 3 or 4 pages of music, to explore the same emotions (well, almost) that Bruckner took 2 hours to explain. Mind you, I like Bruckner!

    Does Bach spoils us? Yes.
     
    Rodrigo de Sá, Nov 4, 2007
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  14. tones

    Rodrigo de Sá This club's crushing bore

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    I agree, but then Bach's music must be repeatedly listened to (preferably even played) to be really liked.

    And during his day he was only famous as an organ expert and virtuoso and as a teacher. Apart from his students and his family no one really knew the WTC or his English Suites.

    I think we have a different relation with music that the one pre-hifi people had.
     
    Rodrigo de Sá, Nov 4, 2007
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  15. tones

    PeteH Natural Blue

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    You're quite right, of course - but you've already illuminated the point I was trying to make. When I said that Bach's perfection made further music in the same vein redundant, I was thinking not so much of intention as of consequence. From our point of view - distorted by the passing of centuries, of course, or, equally, informed by the passing of centuries - it's difficult not to hear stylistically similar music as merely sub-Bach.

    The issue of our post-Edison relationship with music is a very interesting one, and perhaps deserves its own thread (though I'm afraid I'm too lazy to start one :) ).
     
    PeteH, Nov 5, 2007
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  16. tones

    Blue Note

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    Well just to be a devils advocate here, do you not find Bach just a trifle humourless? OK I know the 'Coffee' cantata, but that's just one piece. Compare Bach to Haydn for example. Just about every bar of Haydn crackles with fun, humour, life and vitality and the only musical 'jokes' that really work. I increasingly think that it's our ability to laugh that makes us truly human.

    And Haydn's best work certainly does not lack for seriousness or profundity, take the Creation for example or the Seven Last Words. As another example, the slow movement of the 88th symphony seems to have extraordinary emotional depth – I think I recall that Brahms requested this to be played at his funeral service.

    Don't get me wrong, I love Bach's music. I think the B minor Mass is just about the greatest work of art in any genre. I just feel it might be a mistake to place him on too high a pedestal.
     
    Blue Note, Nov 6, 2007
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  17. tones

    tones compulsive cantater

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    To answer the question Blue Note, I don't find Bach at all humourless - but that's because I'm not looking for humour and probably wouldn't understand it if I fell over it. As a musical ignoramus, I confess I have never noticed the "fun, humour, life and vitality" in every bar of Haydn. I enjoy Haydn, and as you say, his profound works are indeed outstanding. However, to me (and this is purely a personal reaction) for reasons I can't explain, there is something just so complete, so satisfying about Bach. I'm sure our friend Rodrigo the organist/harpsichordist could explain the technicalities as to why this should be. To me, the only things comparable are the symphonies of Beethoven. And to me he merits that high pedestal.
     
    tones, Nov 6, 2007
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  18. tones

    Joe

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    In which case, I'm glad to be a philistine who can listen to any amount of Bach without being 'turned off' rock and pop. In the same way, I can read all sorts of 'difficult' books yet still find whodunnits (for example) enjoyable.
     
    Joe, Nov 6, 2007
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  19. tones

    bat Connoisseur Par Excelence

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    Definitely humourless, and his serious creative crisis, which began when he was in his forties, forced him to endlessly recirculate his old works, that is, steal from himself.

    And those endless late variations - Goldbergs, Von himmel hoch variations, variations on a royal theme (Musical offering), the AoF. When he got an idea, which was not often, he variated it to death.

    But Bach is very easy to listen, and sometimes relaxing, sort of baroque New Age music, suitable for busy modern lifestyle, but if you have time to contemplate, to turn inwards, then there are many much more satisfying composers to choose from.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2007
    bat, Nov 6, 2007
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  20. tones

    adamdea

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    As for
    ...
    Well doesn't everyone like Beethoven's symphonies? And clearly no symphonist can ever ignore them; but why ignore late Beethoven sonatas and quartets, especially if one is a fan of fugues?

    I think the premise of this thread, namely that in comparison with Bach all other music is a bit crap, is tendencious. Of course Bach is seminal, and an endless source of inspiration to other composers, but if excessive exposure to him is likely to make you oblivious to the charms and achievements of the next 250 years worth of music, then I think answer to the question posed by the thread would necessarily be "yes, it does spoil you" although not in the sense presumably intended.
    I prefer to think of Bach as a sort of reference work of ideas and an invaluable palette cleanser.

    Frankly the whole business of which composer is "the best" is a bit naff. It reminds me of the scene in "the office" where David Brent's blind date expresses a liking for Mozart. He corrects her with words to the effect of "I think you'll find that everyone agrees that Beethoven is the best."
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 7, 2007
    adamdea, Nov 7, 2007
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