FFRC redux

Discussion in 'DIY Discussion' started by kuei yang wang, Jul 31, 2003.

  1. kuei yang wang

    kuei yang wang

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    Konnichiwa folks,

    I recently came across the FFRC thread in "Kindergarden". As the FFRC is originally from my end and I had lots of communication about it I think I have a bit of a handle what makes it work and what not. There are a few things that make a marked impact on the sound.

    1) The cable itself - not all CAT5 cable is made equal, I have on more than one occasion found that copperplated aluminum and/or steel cable had been used, not copper.

    2) Mechanics - the preferred (and approved) methode is to TWIST (3 - 4 turns/m), not to braid the three wires and then to cover the whole assembly with this so-called expandable braided sleeving (eg RS Order # 389-892), making sure the sleeving is pulled VERY TIGHT. Braiding ALLWAYS sounds inferior and you MUST braid VERY tightly. I came across several FFRC that had been braided VERY loosely and hence sounded rather bad.

    Further I would note that unlike most stranded speaker cable the FFRC does not lead to the notable hazing and treble rolloff. If a system sounds balanced when using standed speaker cable IT MUST sound spitty and bright when using the FFRC.

    One example is Naim - their older gear definitly need starnded speaker cable to stop them from sounding screetchy. Please note that here the "fault" of the FFRC is simply to pass on what has been messed up upstream from it.

    So in effect the FFRC is inaproppriate in such systems, as are many other of my cables, which is however in no way the cables fault. I try to make all cables from my corner to have as little "sound" as possible. This is how cables should (IMNSHO) behave, though few do.

    Sayonara
     
    kuei yang wang, Jul 31, 2003
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  2. kuei yang wang

    julian2002 Muper Soderator

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    sorry but naim amplifiers use the speaker cable as part of the output circuit and therefore the speaker cable must have certain electrical properties. plenty of warning is given in the user manuals for naim amps so if you still choose to go ahead and use a cable without these properties then it's on your own head.
    nothing is screwed up upstream.
    also naim stuff sounding screechy is a very subjective thing, i don;t happen to think so unless they are perched on a wobbly tower of a certain make of stand but you may.

    i think most of the problems with ffrc stem from the fact that it;s not that cheap when all said and done and it seems to be ultra picky about what equipment you use it with.

    still if it works for you good luck.
    cheers

    julian
     
    julian2002, Jul 31, 2003
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  3. kuei yang wang

    zanash

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    Yes your both right.
    Naim has with one or two other amp makers gone against the grain ....for reasons known to them selves, and that can be speculated by the rest of us. I've no axe to grind against Naim I don't use it does nothing for me I expect many would say the same for my choice of amp. I have to say that I doubt Naim chose to leave out the zobel filter, so they could clean up in the cable department. More likely it sounded better to them without the filter in !

    FFRC yes many cables are not the same, the plenum veriant with PTFE insulation is markedly better than much of the stuff available in the UK. Now I've made both solid core FFRC and Stranded FFRC, yes they do sound different one niether better than nor worse than the other in my system [IMS]

    I've tried other DIY cables including the cross connected coax [u-byte2] and my own varient of the FFRC with twisted conductors.......I've got leave this now but I'll add to later maybe !
     
    zanash, Jul 31, 2003
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  4. kuei yang wang

    kuei yang wang

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    Konnichiwa,

    I am quite aware of this (and it's not only Naim), the FFRC in the connection I originally proposed is STABLE with Naim Amplifiers. It is electically just about high enough net inductance and low enough capacitance to work.

    Yet you would hear the very same sonic character if you used DNM Cables, which is even higher inductance than Naims.

    The issue at stake here is the sonic difference between solid core (fairly neutral sonically) and stranded (heavily coloured sonically) wire. A DNM Amplifier does not suffer from the various design issues which in naim amplifiers give rise to a slew of high order harmonics and noisemodulation. It does not require the "strand fog" to hide behind. Naim gear prior to the 5 Series does need this particular wire feature to remain listenable. The result are material losses (sonically) elsewhere, but such has to be accepetd.

    Naim works as system. So you either accept it as such and enjoy the undeniable strength and live with the equally undeniable limitations, or you go elsewhere. I am a little less autocratically inclined than JV.

    So, use the "approved" FFRC with Naim gear you DO hear EXACTLY what happens upstream (and no - it ain't pretty).

    Sound, just like about everything we can think of is a subjective thing, there is NO objective reality. Read Berkley.

    And yes, ones person throwup potion is anothers delicacy.

    I think neither statement can be substantiated.

    1) at retail prices the materials for 1m FFRC cost < £ 2.50 and if made as originally instructed (instead of "improving" the design by braiding and changing the termination) will be a very quick job to asseble. Almost ANY "Speaker Cable", excepting 79 strand costs more.

    2) The original FFRC is not picky about equipment. It merely attemps to get out of the way. If you don't like the way your gear sounds once it's charater is exposed, maybe it's time to look at the equipment?

    Any of the "improved" versions do all sorts of things, but I am sorry, if you braid and you connect with all coloured wires as one and all white ones as the other it IS NOT the FFRC, it is the design (or lack thereof) by whoever "did it".

    The FFRC has the same essential charater as my other cables, namely neutrality. It is not by a long stretch equal in information retrieval, tonal colours and soundstaging to my more involved cables (such as the Ubyte & VergeltungsWaffe). But it was never developed as "my best cable", merely as "dirt cheap and not quite bad" for those who kept nagging me about the Ubyte being to difficult to make and other loblocks (as they on planet anagramia) like that.

    And what it was aimed to do it does In My Not So Humble Opinion quite well. Oh, to make incompetently copied 1970's RCA transistor design book circuits with marginal stability, shedloads of nonharmonic distortion and similar stuff SOUND GOOD was DISTINCTLY NOT in the design remit.

    Sayonara
     
    kuei yang wang, Aug 1, 2003
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  5. kuei yang wang

    julian2002 Muper Soderator

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    kuei,
    you obviously have a chip on your shoulder with regard to naim equipment. of course that's your perogative.

    naim preamplifiers are bandwidth limited to about 25khz and naim power amps have some of the lowest 2nd and 3rd order harmonic distortion i';ve seen measured so where you get the idea that naim amps have to hide behind a cable in order to mask distortion is beyond me - as is how exactly that would work.

    they may use an old circuit design but the implimentation is second to none as is the attention paid to power supply, supply regulation and component quality. this results in an amplifier that in MY not so humble opinion sipses (i can do the anagram thing too) on most other amps from a great height.

    i suppose you're idea of a good amp is something in the way of krell, levinson or musical fidelity (although some amps from these manufacterers have worse distortortion than naim amps - not that i care about that, just that it sounds good). unfortunately as one manufacturer says life's too short for boring hi-fi.

    back to the point. from what i understand from others who've heard it ffrc is ok as a step up from bell wire or some such but it tries a bit too hard in the upper frequencies and can sound harsh. if you want to blame the equipment rather than the wire then that's your perogative but i'm more inclined to think that if this behaviour is being exhibited across several systems with the ffrcc as the common factor then there might just be some mileage in pointing the finger of suspicion at the ffrc. still as i say it's all subjective and they're your ears.
    cheers

    julian
     
    julian2002, Aug 1, 2003
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  6. kuei yang wang

    LiloLee Blah, Blah, Blah.........

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    Jules,

    kuei yang wang's idea of a good amp is the same as me ie a high distortion thermionic light bulb. kyw favours older 300b, 2a3 etc and high efficiency speakers.

    Of course this is diametrically opposite NAIM, but they both have +ve & -ve aspects. Each to his.her own.
     
    LiloLee, Aug 1, 2003
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  7. kuei yang wang

    kuei yang wang

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    Konnichiwa,

    Not particulary. I just find them (like so much else in Audio) excessively overhyped and in some aspects of design questionable, especially those areas where a fundamental design flaw is promoted as "feature".

    The issues are around the transient behaviour. Have you ever doen a test for non-harmonic distortion on Naim Amp's? Or a multi-tone IMD test?

    Not just old. PLEASE. It is one that omits many things that we have to come to understand to help the inherent linerity of the Amplifier and to avoid the various types of transient and non-harmonic distortions.

    Hence the presence of Capacitors in critical (coupling/feedback) positions that are proven to generate comparably high levels of distortions.

    Naim Systems have a distinctive sound. If you like that sound it will obviously be the case that "Naim is right and everybody else is wrong". However, as Naim systems do NOT by a long stretch off a neutral portrayal of the recording we muct class that which makes Naim sound what it is as coloration and inaccuracy. If you like it - fine.

    But if you DO stick to Naim all the way. Introducing my cables into a naim system will invariably unbalance the sound as my design philosophy is diametrially opposed to Naim's. So, if my cables make a Naim system sound like what it sounds without the right sort of (highly sonically coloured cable - as you can verify in a bypass test) then that is not the problem of the cable.

    Hardly. I have already mentioned one maker of Solid state Amplifiers I like (DNM). Another one I like is 47 Labs. Jeff Rowlands earlier battery powered and transformer coupled stuff was much to my liking. Surprisingly I also like the Tripath Digital Amplifiers (like the Veritas) when implemented well.

    Normally I prefer however amplifiers based around circuits using linear devices, without nonlinear capacitances caused by solid state technology and omiting loop feedback, thusly eliminating all the various transient distortion, noise modulation etc, all the simple expedient o comparably high levels of low order (and thusly sonically begnign) harmonic distortion.

    Compared to both Levinson and Krell Naim's amplifiers do show more nonharmonic distortion and THAT matters. However, two of the three Manufacturers you have mentioned in my view make pretty dreadful sounding gear (I leave it to you work out which) while #3 makes pretty decent gear, which sounds neutral if uninspiring.

    Which is all it was ever meant to be.

    DO A BYPASS TEST.

    What you describe is not the "sound" of the cable, it is merely the result of removing one layer of specific colorations (stranded wire sound) from the system. It may very well be that the FFRC has poor compatibility, sonically, with many of British Amplifiers which I find with few exceptions to tenmd towards a rather forward and bright as well as often grainy sound, but trust me, it is NOT the fault of the cable.

    So do I, if in a different sense. HOWEVER, if all these systems sound better using stranded cables then I have to say that fault lies in the system context (Equipment) and not in the cable. And I suspect if you used DNM Cable it would sound similar.

    Oh, a last one. If you use the "Color Code" connection and you braid the cable you will find the sound very much on the bright side simply because the resulting cable will have quite horrible resonances at suprasonic frequencies and needs suitable RLC circuits before and after the cable to contol this ringing. And of course, strictly speaking you have not made the FFRC, but a cable of your own design.

    Sayonara
     
    kuei yang wang, Aug 1, 2003
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  8. kuei yang wang

    julian2002 Muper Soderator

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    kuei,
    i've never heard naim 'overhype' the design of their amps before (nap 500 excepted but i believe we are referring to the older olive style anyway) so i cannot really see what your point is. i'm not saying that naim don;t use an old design. i am saying that they pay more attention than most to psu design and rectification and they produce a distinctive sound that some like.
    it was you who singled naim out as 'messing up the signal' which i think is utter rot.

    as i'm not a 'technical bod' i won;t even attempt to argue with you within that domain however the distortion measurements and graphs i've seen for naim amps haven't stood out a particularly bad usually they have minimal amounts of distortion across the frequency range.

    ffrc i'm not too bothered about to be honest i'm unlikely to try it however holding up one make of kit and saying it messes up the signal is a bit like saying all valves sound mushy, warm and compressed. it's not a true representation of that piece of equipment and i think taints the rest of what you are saying such that if you spouting loblocks about one area then it;'s entirely possible that your are spouting equal loblocks in a different area.
    cheers


    julian
     
    julian2002, Aug 1, 2003
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  9. kuei yang wang

    zanash

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    Ah I'm back ...............


    Well the discusion has progressed since I last posted.

    The point is your both right in a way.

    The Naim name [pun] was over played by Hifi journalist in the mid70 onward, consiquently each new hack had to at least hear what the old ones heared , who no doubt were there bosses ! So the spiraling up the reputation of Naim....

    Now some of there products are damn good and some are not. Most people can tell if there hearing good. I think I'm in the minority actually liking there designs but they just don't float my particular canoe.

    DIY cable has been a source of great pleasure [and fustration ] for me, I'm really pleased My Quad amps will drive every thing and still have a bit left over. I've said previously that my current cable [recipe on the DIY board ] is in my opinion better than the FFRC that I had constructed, but FFRC is a very nice sounding cable and will better many many off the roll cheapy budget offerings.

    You can't really compare it to the isoldas etc of this world, but you get double or triple the pleasure knowing that you made it your self and its not cost the earth.

    In my case I got to £10-00 a metre and though what the hell am I paying this sort of money for, there has to be a better alternative. The £60 to £100 I was spending just how many secondhand LP's or CD could I get.
     
    zanash, Aug 1, 2003
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  10. kuei yang wang

    wadia-miester Mighty Rearranger

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    Just thought I point out my 79p@ meter throw together was quite a bit better than the FFRC, I've pitted it against (and made) so you can do DIY well, and Much cheapiness Too :D
    Class 't' is good, never be a 300b subsitute, but I wouldn't want it to, Horses for coarses :) good to see enlightened discussion going on here. WM
     
    wadia-miester, Aug 1, 2003
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  11. kuei yang wang

    zanash

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    As previously stated a lot depends on the quality of construction and materials used.....

    But then if you don't like the sound, you don't like the sound no ammount of effort will redeme them. Must have been good 79p/m stuff wish I'd found some......That said I had some Twin and earth that sounded very good, much better than the archetypal 79strand.
     
    zanash, Aug 1, 2003
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  12. kuei yang wang

    wadia-miester Mighty Rearranger

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    The stuff we used for the test is commericaly available POWER Cable 4 cores all I did was to terminate with some IXOS screw lock 4mm bannana's, which cost 3 times the price of the cable :eek: we didn't even cook it either :( so further improvement is possible, or even a spot of Cryo'ing, copper responds really well to this total cost of two 2.5m BI-Wre bires 5 times £0.79p and £1.05 times 12 plus heat shrink £4.56 per 15 M reel, so total inc Vat £24.80 plus 1.5 hours time to make, and no twisting required. WM
     
    wadia-miester, Aug 1, 2003
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  13. kuei yang wang

    kuei yang wang

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    Konniciwa,

    Stranded or not? Stranded vs. Solid Cable has distinct sonics. In an "absolute" (bypass test) scenario I find stranded cables wanting.

    In a given system, starting with the original recording they may be just what was needed to balance the sound.

    HOWEVER, I will repeat that if a cable that in a bypass test (bypass test means adding the cable to an existing IN ADDITION and removing it for A/B testing) is considered resonably neutral yet which in a given system is thought to affect the sound does so by revealing what was already there (otherwise it would NEVER "pass" the bypass test).

    Now it is perfectly fine to say that "In the context of my system, consisting of X/Y/Z in a suitably well treated room (in the acoustical sense) or in a totally untreated room (or anything inbetween) I preferred cable X/Y/Z over Cable A/B/C on subjective sonics. It also helps to qualify if the test was done long term/one afternoon and blind/sighted.

    HOWEVER, all this said, to conclude from the results of an evaluation in one system, one context and a small set of participants that A/B/C/X/Y/Z is "no good" is stretching the laws of physics, staistics and credulity a bit far.

    I voice ALL my gear based on the bypass test principle. I should NOT be able to determine with reasonable reliability, under reasonably realistic condition the addition of X/Y/Z to an existing system. Another way to say is "neutral sound". And yes, despite in certain areas questionable measurements a competently designed SE Valve Amplifier in the right system context can be "neutral".

    Now I'm equally aware that many commercial manufacturers voice their gear (assuming they do it all) based on the supposed common context.

    So, as in many other areas so in audio we find the Saducees, Pharacies and Gentiles dominant while the Hashidim (the seekers after truth) are at the margins.

    Sayonara

    PS, twin & earth solid core wire is a great speaker wire in it's own context and used well.

    PPS, ANY STRANDED wire ANYWHERE (even in the heater circuits of indirectly heated valves - never mind mains cables or G*d forbid speaker or interconnect cables) imposes it's own "haziness" on the sound. And yes, that goes as much for the wire inside amp's as for outside. having 4" stranded wire in an amplifier is enough to FUBAR the sound of a truely good system TO MY EARS.
     
    kuei yang wang, Aug 2, 2003
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  14. kuei yang wang

    zanash

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    Can you amplify [pun] I'm a little confussed thismorning can't quite get my head round what you mean ?

    Quote

    I will repeat that if a cable that in a bypass test (bypass test means adding the cable to an existing IN ADDITION and removing it for A/B testing) is considered resonably neutral yet which in a given system is thought to affect the sound does so by revealing what was already there (otherwise it would NEVER "pass" the bypass test).
     
    zanash, Aug 2, 2003
    #14
  15. kuei yang wang

    kuei yang wang

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    Konnichiwa,

    A bypass test is simply to add a given Device Under Test (DUT) to the chain without changing anything else. The DUT is added and removed. For interconnects and all sorts of signal processors the tape-loop is a good choice to test such items.

    If you replace Item A with Item B you may inaccuratly ascribe manipulative sonic changes to Item B (eg. "this sounds hars & grainy") when in reality they result from the removal of Item A.

    A bypass simply leaves Item A in place and daisychaines Item B in. In a bypass test you can asses the "absolute neutrality" of any given DUT quite well. I use it for selecting the components I use in my DIY Projects and for any other sort of thing.

    So when I recommend something (be it a capacitor, resistor or cable) you may safely assume they where found "neutral" and at the worst slightly subtractive in sonic effect, but NEVER very additive.
    :007:
    Of course, maybe my system which tends to be highly revealing of recording techniques, playing techniques and even minor tweaks (such as pieces of crystal and wooden chinese chess pieces on the top of equipment) is way too opaque to hear what cables do???
    :confused:


    Sayonara
     
    kuei yang wang, Aug 2, 2003
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  16. kuei yang wang

    zanash

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    I think I understand, but I can see more negatives in respect to speaker cables. If you daisy chain your speaker cables with new speaker cables you get more than the extra sonic character of the added cable. The original set may act as block to the new cables always preventing them sound there best. The added L and C the amp "see" will not be the same for either speaker cable on there own. The ability to be able to distiguish in effect three sonic characters mustadd more doubt to the process. Three because you have the original, the new and the two together. I'm in no doubt that all three sonic signitures will be different. I have in the past played with paralleling cables to look at the differences but again your looking at three sonic signiture as opposed to two [normal testing].
    Now I'm not saying what your doing is wrong it just doen't suite me.

    As for Ic's and the tape loop yes that does work, with a big but. Most tape loops have different characteristics than the standard input sockets these differences will also effect the percived sound. I say most inputs, all the amps I've had show in their specs the different input values.

    I have built a test rig with multi connections for different IC's.....it didn't work due mainly to the various limiting factor, switch quality rca socket quality, solder joints. All degredated the signal to a point where any comparison was completly meaning less.

    I have to say the traditional, listen to one and then swap has worked well for me, and I can normaly tell in a few bars of music if its been a positive or negative change. It takes a little longer to work out exactly what the changes are but thats what its al about.
     
    zanash, Aug 2, 2003
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  17. kuei yang wang

    kuei yang wang

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    Konnichiwa,

    Of course, or from sounding "worse"....

    Well, the methode suits the requirements to answer a specific question. And the question is not "does this make my system sound better". It is "does this materially add or subtract within a well balanced system.

    I agree that this works fine and even great for a preference test, to allow you to say "I like A more then B." I use this to answer this question. But surely it is obvious that "Is this gizmo neutral" repesents a very different question from "Do I like this gizmo in my system better than another?".

    Sayonara
     
    kuei yang wang, Aug 2, 2003
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  18. kuei yang wang

    zanash

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    I note your comments with intrest, but you say

    Quote

    It is "does this materially add or subtract within a well balanced system".

    Now this in my understanding is the same as say is better or worse. A more natural sound is by definition "better" . By natural I'm reffering to to the question of adding or subtracting to the balance of a system, which should IMO remain in equilibrium pre and post any change.

    Quote

    But surely it is obvious that "Is this gizmo neutral" repesents a very different question from "Do I like this gizmo in my system better than another?".

    If i'm looking to add or change a component I'm not looking for neutral. If I've splashed out on a new "gizmo" I'll definately be wanting the thing to have an effect, being both natural and positive additions to the system!
     
    zanash, Aug 2, 2003
    #18
  19. kuei yang wang

    kuei yang wang

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    Konnichiwa,

    It is not the same. A well balanced system does sound natural. If I add a device I might end up making the sound less tranparent (subtractive coloration) or maybe I will shift the tonal balance (additive coloration). If it does "nothing" it may be considered "neutral" in the context.

    Compared to the better cables from my list the FFRC for example is mildly subtractive. The various common stranded cable, be they mains electrical code or "special" Speaker cables (including naims and Supra) are DRAMATICALLY subtractive in nature.

    Yet often what is brutally neutral is not suited in the context of a given system, as it does not only not remove a part of the music, but because it also lets all the colorations from associated equipment remain.

    One subject is synergy (what, even strongly deviating from neutrality works in a given system?) the other is neutrality (what does add the least charater of it's own to the sound, regardless of system context?).

    The two subjects are distinctly seperate and overlap only in systems where each component is designed for inherent neutrality. Most Audio Manufacturers in the "Mid-Fi" and "High-End" arena tend to voice their gear for a distinct "house sound", which by definition cannot be neutral. The endresult is invariably that the music is not reproduced naturally.

    Which is why in this day and age a pair of decent "old" Alnico Magnet Fullrange Speakers (6.5" JVC in sealed cabinets, wallmounting - C37 lacquered) driven by a cheap Goodmans Micro System with minimal Mods (better caps, C37 lacquering of PCB) sound miles more natural and relaistic (within the SPL limitations of the Speakers and amp and accounting for limited bandwidth of the speakers) than many a high and super high end system.

    Sayonara
     
    kuei yang wang, Aug 2, 2003
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  20. kuei yang wang

    zanash

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    Hum I think we are debating and agreeing the same thing, like trying to describe the colour green

    I agree with most of what you say, I have no experience with the alinco's or Goodman's micro systems so I can't comment. But synergy is vital not just important !

    I think we have a differing methodology in responce to the problem of audible differences in new kit, but that doesn't mean disagree!
     
    zanash, Aug 3, 2003
    #20
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