Good secondhand speakers for £6-700... suggestions?

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi and General Audio' started by dunkyboy, Oct 27, 2003.

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  1. dunkyboy

    dunkyboy

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    I just sold my ATC Active 10s with the intention of taking a few months (/years/decades) to do a little dance in the secondhand market - i.e. swap 'round a succession of secondhand speakers until either I find the perfect pair for me, or I get fed up. If nothing else it should broaden my hifi horizons and give me a good thorough audiophile education.

    So, my first port of call is a pair of JM Lab Electra 905s. So very different from the ATCs, but definitely good speakers. I'm awaiting a Classé CA-100 power amp to drive them, though, so won't know for sure how I like them till that arrives (prolly tomorrow). In the meantime I'm using an Arcam Alpha 10P borrowed from the dealer I got the speakers from.

    As I say, I can't tell from first impressions (only had 'em two days now), but it's likely I'll end up flogging the JM Labs and trying something else, so I'm looking for suggestions for other speakers I might try.

    I don't know how to describe my tastes, but I lived with the ATC Active 10s for 2+ years and loved their sound, but in the end I was put off by the sort of upper-midband "sheen" that I didn't like. I also wanted something with a bit more weight and authority (something the JM Labs have in spades).

    I listen to all sorts of music, from Dylan to Metallica, Massive Attack to Lambchop, Bjork to Tori Amos, Radiohead to B.B. King.... I'm also a classical fiend, though a relatively novice one - my favourite composers (that I've discovered so far) are probably Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Vivaldi, and maybe Bach. I do love the sorts of grand orchestral pieces that really stir the soul, though I also enjoy solo instrumental pieces, smaller chamber music, and everything in between.

    There are certain qualities I REQUIRE a good set of speakers to have: dynamics, decent bass (meaning clean, tuneful, tight, but powerful, though I have an ATC Concept 4 sub to fill in the low end if need be, so small standmounts are definitely a consideration), lack of brightness, and good imaging. I've also been spoiled by the ATCs, and thus appreciate good timing, cohesiveness, driver integration, and a good, neutral balance. I'd prefer generally neutral speakers, but this is an educational exercise, so I'd be happy to try speakers with "colourful" balances if they have other redeeming qualities (I don't think I'd call the JM Labs neutral, and I'm certainly enjoying them!)

    Oh, and they also MUST be able to go LOUD - I like to listen to music that way, and they'll serve as main L & R speakers in an AV system as well as their primary hifi duties, so they NEED to be able to take some abuse (and ideally thrive on it).

    Anyway, from my own personal experience, I think the next speaker for me to try will be the Dynaudio Contour 1.3 Mk. II, which I've seen floating around for £650. I had a demo of them two and a bit years ago, before deciding to buy the Active 10s, and I remember REALLY liking them.

    But I'm open to other possibilities. It's a big wide world out there, and I know you guys here at ZG have seen a lot more of it than I have!

    My system as it stands (I don't intend to change any of these any time soon):

    Meridian 507 CD player
    ATC CA-2 preamp
    Target R6 (I believe) stands

    My room is medium sized (around 3.5m x 4.8m with 2.8m ceiling and a big bay window in one of the small walls), fairly well damped acoustically (though I'm hoping to get some proper acoustic treatment). It has a bit of a bass problem in its current configuration, with a nasty hump around 80Hz and another around 45-50Hz, but again I'm hoping to treat that acoustically with some tuned bass traps in the nearish future...

    I'm probably looking mainly at standmounters here, but I'd consider some not-too-OTT floorstanders, as I know there are good ones out there.

    Cheers,

    Dunc

    P.S. - I'm also open for suggestions regarding power amps. I was kinda hoping to stick with the Classé (just because choosing speakers is tough enough; I don't need the hassle of different amps as well!), but if there is definitely better out there, I'd be willing to give it a go. Mustn't cost more than about £700 secondhand, though, as I don't want to lose any money ideally.
     
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    dunkyboy, Oct 27, 2003
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  2. dunkyboy

    Matt F

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    Can't believe you've sold your Active 10's - I thought you'd take those to the grave with you!

    When I moved from my M&K monitors (probably similar in sound to your ATC's) I considered the Dynaudio Contour 1.3's but ended up going for Monitor Audio Gold Ref 10's instead - part of this decision though, in fairness, was because I knew I could pick up a Gold Ref Centre quite easily whereas the Contour centre is a rare beast, expensive and has a type of rear port which I always try to avoid.

    When I found a second pair of GR10's for £400 (with stands) then this made my mind up for me (and I didn't get around to listening to the Contour 1.3's). I then picked up an ex-dem GR centre for £375. So that was a £1300 front three for £775!

    I found that the GR10's gave little away in detail to the M&K's (something that was essential for me as they are used in an AV as well as a stereo set up) and yet seemed to give more depth to the image in stereo. They also have remarkable bass for their size. The centre speaker is awesome - the best I've ever heard - and is a superb tonal match to the GR10's.

    So, definitely check out the GR10's (ex-dem about £600) and maybe also their floorstanding brothers - the GR20's - I mean - WM was happy with the GR20's for a long time in his exotic system (albeit with a few DIY tweaks).

    Matt.
     
    Matt F, Oct 27, 2003
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  3. dunkyboy

    merlin

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    Duncan,

    I'd give a pair of Yammy Ns1000M's a go! they will trash little pretenders like the Dyns, chew em up and spit them out. Only caneat is they are very revealing so need good ancillaries, but you seem to be OK on that front so go on teat yourself!
     
    merlin, Oct 27, 2003
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  4. dunkyboy

    sideshowbob Trisha

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    Dr. Freud will be along shortly to see you, Merlin.

    Duncan, you were nuts to sell the ATCs.

    Robbo's baby Proacs are worth a listen, don't know what they go for secondhand but they're very good indeed.

    -- Ian
     
    sideshowbob, Oct 27, 2003
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  5. dunkyboy

    merlin

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    I guess it's the result of hours sat in front of that pair of 15" JBL's with the large dust caps Ian;)

    Proac 1sc, nice when partnered well. S/h in the ballpark, but they don't like to go really loud IMO. I do have a couple of pairs available if anyone's interested BTW.

    Get the Yamahas:D
     
    merlin, Oct 27, 2003
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  6. dunkyboy

    tones compulsive cantater

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    Good secondhand speakers for £6-700... suggestions?

    I suggest that, when you find good second-hand speakers for £6, you contact me immediately...
     
    tones, Oct 27, 2003
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  7. dunkyboy

    dunkyboy

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    I know I may end up regretting selling the ATCs, but they really do have a "sound" that I've decided I'm tired of. It's sort of an excess of energy in the upper-mid that gives everything a bit of an unnatural bite, and a "sheen" in places... I just don't find it natural, and recent experience has shown me that other speakers don't tend to have this.

    There's also the issue of scale/weight. The ATCs are quite wee sealed boxes with wee mid/bass drivers and they just don't throw a terribly large or impressive image until you really crank them (and even then, they could do with more weight).

    I recently made the mistake of hearing the new Active 20s - they have all the good qualities of the 10s, plus the image size and weight I'm looking for - AND the most incredible bass I've ever heard in my life! I just listened briefly, with CDs like Massive Attack's 100th Window and the SpaceMonkeys Vs. Gorillaz CD, and holy shit the bass was UNBELIEVABLE! And not just by its depth and volume (which was actually quite lean), but by it's sheer SLAM and SPEED - it really hit you hard in the chest, and never let up even when you cranked it to stupid volume levels.... sigh, 'twas beautiful...

    But sadly, the 20s had the same "sheen" I was talking about. The passive ATCs don't have it, AFAICT, so it must be a thing with the actives. Maybe the built in power amps? I can imagine it might be beneficial for studio monitoring where you want to hear every last detail, especially in the upper mid / lower treble, but it just isn't "right" IMO. And it's such a shame as everything else about the ATC sound IS just right.

    I wouldn't be surprised if I ended up with a pair of SCM-12s in the end. :)

    Anyway, cheers for the suggestions, and keep 'em coming. I'll keep an eye out for used NS-1000s (they are rather legendary speakers, aren't they?) One thing, though - will they be alright in a not-too-large room? They look like beasts...

    Dunc
     
    dunkyboy, Oct 27, 2003
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  8. dunkyboy

    michaelab desafinado

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    Exactly what I was about to recommend :) I have a pair (bought s/h for £600) and I love them :MILD:

    Michael.
     
    michaelab, Oct 27, 2003
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  9. dunkyboy

    sideshowbob Trisha

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    Hmm, I'm not sure what you mean by this "sheen". I don't hear that. Did you have them toed in, by any chance? I found they work much better firing straight ahead, on lightweight (Kan) stands, close to the wall. (My room is a similar size to yours.) You're right about bass weight and overall scale, of course, but, as you say, that's a limitation of volume and driver size, something any small sealed box is going to exhibit.

    Never heard Classe amps, but if it was me I'd definitely start with the ATC passives as the first port of call. Apart from Robbo's Proacs, I haven't heard any small standmounter in that price range I like as much as my Active 10s, although there's plenty I haven't heard, of course.

    -- Ian
     
    sideshowbob, Oct 27, 2003
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  10. dunkyboy

    Mr Perceptive

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    Shahinians Anyone....?

    Although not everyone's cup of tea, what about some Shahinian Arcs (you will save money by selling off or not buying any stands as well, and as for spikes why bother!?!).

    I recently bought a pair s/h in your price range (given that they are over £3K new) and am completely sold on them. Great Dynamics and good controlled low level bass, all from a veneered swingtop bin! Seem to be very tolerant of position and fill the room the sound, so you can just get on with the music and forget about the hi-fi.

    Don't know anything about your amp so can't comment on the compatibility.

    If you must spike them then Mana now do a custom stand see this thread on PFM http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1118

    I had previously demmed the Contour 1.1's and was looking at an ex-demo pair, but a few days at a friends house with some Shahinian Obelisks convinced me that I loved the Shahian sound.

    If you buy s/h whatever you choose you won't loose much money so best of luck with your hunting.

    Mr Perceptive
     
    Mr Perceptive, Oct 27, 2003
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  11. dunkyboy

    merlin

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    Duncan, they are a sealed box design so will happily work reasonably close to the rear wall and in a smallish room. Big drivers do seem to drive rooms more evenly, in my small room I get more boom from a pair of standmounts than out of two 15" cones, so the 12"'s in the yammy's should be great.

    By sheen, what are you comparing them to? ATC's for me only tell the truth, nothing more. Could it be that you prefer a somewhat recessed presence region (ala Rogers, Spendor et all).
     
    merlin, Oct 27, 2003
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  12. dunkyboy

    dunkyboy

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    Bob,

    They definitely sounded better firing straight ahead (rather than toed in), and moving them close to the wall filled in the leaner low end a bit, but also introduced a really obvious muddledness to the midrange and bass. I ended up finding a compromise that suited them well. But I couldn't get rid of that sheen...

    I did suspect it was either an issue with my specific pair of speakers, or perhaps with my room or upstream components, but the other day in the shop I got the JM Labs from I heard the same thing in the Active 20s. I'm not sure, but I think it may have been even more noticeable (and disagreeable). That was using the ATC SCA-2 preamp (the £3K one) and a Linn Karik (I think?) CD player.

    The only common component in the two systems is the ATC preamps, which are generally considered to be excellent. What preamp are you using? It's worth noting, however, that both with my Sennheiser HD-600 headphones and now the JM Labs, I'm using the ATC preamp with no hint of the upper midrange glare.

    The owner of the shop agreed with my dislike of this "glare" (he described the 10s as sounding "glassy"). My one glimmer of hope for them is the owner of the Active 20s that were in the shop. He said he normally uses them with a Naim CD player and an EAR preamp, and says he has no problems with any midrange anomalies. So maybe it is the upstream components? I was under the impression ATC designed the CA-2 specifically to work well with the Active 10s, though..... sigh, I'm at a loss. :(

    In any case, the deed is done; for good or for ill, I no longer have the 10s.

    I'll see if the shop owner will let me try a pair of SCM-12s, but I doubt I could afford them any time soon, unless I could find a pair secondhand...

    I've heard ProAcs before (Tablette 2000 Signatures, I believe) and didn't like them, but that was a long time ago, in-store, and with different electronics than my own, so I may give some ProAcs a go at some point.

    Thanks for all the responses,

    Dunc
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 27, 2003
    dunkyboy, Oct 27, 2003
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  13. dunkyboy

    sideshowbob Trisha

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    hi Duncan, I'm now using the CA2 with no glassiness AFAICT. Sources are an Orbe-spec Gyro with Hadcock arm and Ortofon Rohmann cart and Sonneteer Byron CD player. Maybe you're cursed with GrahamN's bat-like hearing, in which case I feel sorry for you. :D

    Oddly enough, I was using them with an EAR preamp myself until a couple of weeks ago, most enjoyably too.

    [wet blanket mode]
    I don't want to come over all wet blanket but I still think you'll struggle to better them for £700, but I wish you luck.
    [/wet blanket mode]

    -- Ian
     
    sideshowbob, Oct 27, 2003
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  14. dunkyboy

    dunkyboy

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    I know in terms of absolute quality I'll be hard-pressed to beat them at my budget, although I do clearly remember thinking at the time that I may have bought the Dynaudio Contours over the ATCs were it not for two factors - the need for a meatier power amp than I had at the time and the £300 extra that the Dyns cost (my how times change!) So I'm not entirely pessimistic. :)

    Furthermore, I expect that since I'll be undertaking this endeavour over what will most likely be a protracted period of time, I'll probably end up adding incrementally to the budget - i.e. maybe spending £100 or so each time I swap speakers... So after a few swaps I could end up with substantially more expensive speakers than the JM Labs I'm starting with. ;)

    Dunc
     
    dunkyboy, Oct 27, 2003
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  15. dunkyboy

    Robbo

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    Dunc,

    The 1SCs are indeed super little speakers, and they do go loud, but if you want very loud for long periods (at WM or GrahamN levels) then you are going to need speakers with bigger drive units/more power handling. They are at least worth a listen, as they may well do the trick, as long as they can play loud enough for you.
     
    Robbo, Oct 27, 2003
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  16. dunkyboy

    dunkyboy

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    Yup, bigger/more drive units are definitely a plus for me. :) The JM Labs' dual mid/bass units, large box size (for a standmount), port loading, and overall high sensitivity give them a fantastic sense of scale and weight that I'm thoroughly addicted to at the moment. I'd like to get away from the nearfield/minimonitor sound, as I've realised over the years that I'm more a mid/far-fielder at heart - I just love sitting back to a wall of realistic, exhilirating sound in front of me (it's especially important for orchestral works). :JPS:

    Dunc
     
    dunkyboy, Oct 27, 2003
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  17. dunkyboy

    Robbo

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    the Proacs can do this btw - when fed a decent signal. They produce a huge sound for their size!
     
    Robbo, Oct 27, 2003
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  18. dunkyboy

    I-S Good Evening.... Infidel

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    How is it that no one has mentioned Meadowlark yet?

    Kestrel Hotrods should easily come in at around £500-£600. If you look around second hand, you might find Swifts for £750 or so, and if you're REALLY lucky (or you're WM) you might find some Shearwaters (normal or hotrod) in that price range.

    Exhilirating is the word...
     
    I-S, Oct 27, 2003
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  19. dunkyboy

    Rory satisfied

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    Celestion Sl600si
    Celestion Sl700se
    Tannoy D100
    ooh
    errr

    Mordaunt Short Performance 860- stunning speakers... as heard at bakeoff- £700 inc Nordost Blue Heaven or £650 without...i'm selling some

    cheers
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 27, 2003
    Rory, Oct 27, 2003
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  20. dunkyboy

    Paul Ranson

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    Isobariks.

    Paul
     
    Paul Ranson, Oct 27, 2003
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