Hacking up Isolda

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi and General Audio' started by Alex S, Jul 6, 2004.

  1. Alex S

    Alex S User

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    A venerable Pinkfisher has removed one of the filters on Isolda and reports favourably: 'more dynamic, less hard'. What say the cable experts to a few questions: 1. Will a DV HX1.2 still run stable without the filters? 2. Are the filters supposed to be integral to the sound or are they there just for protection? 3. Will I suffer from a mountain of RFI if I remove them? - Max T makes a big play of the filters' RFI suppression. 4. Both ends of Isolda are crudely soldered with OFC multi-strand to bananas - would I be best off dispensing with all that gubbins and just clamping the copper ribbon into the amp and speaker terminals?

    Thanks in advance of any answers.

    Alex

    PS I know I should be using WM's cable; PPS I know I really ought to try Mana again.
     
    Alex S, Jul 6, 2004
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  2. Alex S

    merlin

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    Alex,

    you'd be better off just buying some Goetz M2 cheap from Audiogon and doing comparisons.

    All Max does is put a Zoebel network in line for poorly designed amplifiers. I'm sure your Dynavector is not such an amp.
     
    merlin, Jul 6, 2004
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  3. Alex S

    Alex S User

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    Merlin, I'm skint. So what would be your guess if the Zoebel's removed - different, better, worse, nowt?
     
    Alex S, Jul 6, 2004
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  4. Alex S

    felix part-time Horta

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    My guess - nowt, and no resale value on the remaining Isolda.
     
    felix, Jul 6, 2004
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  5. Alex S

    merlin

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    It will be entirely dependent on the amplifier concerned and only trial and error will show this. Sell the Isolda and buy some Goetz :D
     
    merlin, Jul 6, 2004
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  6. Alex S

    wadia-miester Mighty Rearranger

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    Martin, (felix) is on the ball here I feel :)
     
    wadia-miester, Jul 6, 2004
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  7. Alex S

    Alex S User

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    Is the Goetz deep frozen? - We all know how vital that is, ahem.
     
    Alex S, Jul 6, 2004
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  8. Alex S

    grivois

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    Goertz store their cable in the freezing and naturally cryogenic Connecticut mountains:)

    BTW, I've tried my Goertz Mi2, with and without the supplied Zoebels, and guess what? No difference!

    You can buy direct from Goertz using their online store.
     
    grivois, Jul 6, 2004
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  9. Alex S

    merlin

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    As I said, providing your amp has a zoebel network at the output it really shouldn't make much of a difference. Has anyone tried Isolda with valves or OTL's? What are the thoughts? I must admit that midrange certainly has a hardness that seems to be a characteristic of anything I've heard that's been cryogenically treated.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 6, 2004
    merlin, Jul 6, 2004
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  10. Alex S

    rewster

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    LOL!

    No generalising here then Merlin!


    'I must admit that midrange certainly has a hardness that ssems to be a characteristic of anything that's been cryogenically treated.'

    "I must admit" Well must you, who pressed you to dispense your extensive knowledge of the subject? So which other cryo cables have you tried? What cable has the required level of 'softness' to make you happy? What you should be hearing from a properly treated cryo cable is exactly what that cable is capable of, the DCT doesn't add or take away any particular sound, but it does allow the cable sound to be fully revealed by improving the structure of the materials employed by it's designer. Moving on to the "anything that's been cryogenically treated" bit, have you heard valves which have been treated? Spot the 'characteristic' hardness there if you can, what you'll find is clarity in buckets, same as the cables.
     
    rewster, Jul 6, 2004
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  11. Alex S

    merlin

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    He Hey I thought that would wake up a few "interested parties" :D Nothing like a sweeping generalisation to bring the pot to the boil! I have amended the post to more accurately reflect my experiences.

    So your contention is that it makes things sound better. I would argue it certainly seems to subtley change the characteristics, but whether it's better or not surely depends on what you are looking for?

    I've heard DCT'd Mains Cables, Speaker Cables, and transformers. In each case I have noticed an increased sense of detail and immediacy. I have also found this effect to be somewhat tiring in the long term and not wholly natural. Not heard DCT valves but would certainly enjoy the opportunity of comparing them with stock.

    If DCT really was the universal improvement that some claim, would it not be fair to suggest that the majority of cable manufacturers would have by now sought out suitable facilities to offer this "upgrade"? If only to aid their marketing.
     
    merlin, Jul 6, 2004
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  12. Alex S

    wadia-miester Mighty Rearranger

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    Mike,
    I would shunyata go against the grain on that one mate :eek: slow and naturally rich maybe?
    However, I would agree with some of the comments, not all cables benefit from DCT imho, some clearly do without question, however not just from a sound quality point of view but a purely mechanical one as well.
    One of the CE tests for mains cables is a mechanical push/pull style test, as well as a set of up and over set of rollers, what do you think cables which have been treated with DCT would do during this test (dependant upon construction). Answers on a postcard please :rolleyes:
     
    wadia-miester, Jul 6, 2004
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  13. Alex S

    rewster

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    ;) Merlin,

    I thought you both independently minded and gentlemanly in your responses, hence the quick, and ever so slightly grumpy retort! Your edit proves me to have been correct, and warrants my apology for getting on your case! :)



    I make you right on this point, the 'better or not issue' is in the ear of the beholder, you either like, don't like, or don't notice most of the changes that are employed to alter sound quality. DCT falls into a different category than some other 'tweaks' in as much as there are changes to the material structure evidenced after treatment, these changes are, I feel an improvement, and evidenced by applications of DCT technology which extend well beyond the scope of sound production, right across the globe and beyond! The changes when presented to the listening situation might be felt as beneficial or otherwise as described above. That's for the individual to make up their own mind about, not for anyone else.

    I have been lucky to recieve a great deal of feedback from people who live with DCT audio gear by choice, and their take on the subject is distinctly in the 'chuffed' category. You could legitimately say that this situation is the same as experienced by other promoters of audio bits n bobs, who similarly provide a change to hifi sound that is appreciated, popular and current examples are Mana, and Nordost, equally Townshend. Probably there are as many stacked in the 'pro' camps for these products as in the 'con' trenches.

    As for manufacturers catching on to the DCT concept, there are already a good spread of manufacturer styles and types who do, and in their situations they believe the improvements are important to the sound or operation of their product.

    The fact that. as you say, the 'majority' don't use it is probably for reasons too complex to go into, but ultimately means the choice is still out there for the customer to make. As they used to say 'Let your eye be your guide, and your money the last thing you part with' (Substitute eye for ear in this context!)

    As for the valve treatment, it isn't widespread because there aren't too many firms that can do it. Doing it badly isn't an option or you end up with broken valves. :newbie::cry:
     
    rewster, Jul 6, 2004
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  14. Alex S

    Saab

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    I doubt Mr T will agree because the charges £50 for the little metal tubes...............still a great cable though,well it is if you go from QED SA to Isolda,big improvement
     
    Saab, Jul 6, 2004
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  15. Alex S

    bottleneck talks a load of rubbish

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    Someone said what does Goertz/Isolda sound like with valves?

    Very nice thinks I, and also SCIDB who uses it too (Im not wrong am I dean?!)

    For those who can hear a difference between Goertz and Isolda I have to cocur that it must be the DBT. What else could it be?

    I cannot see that a zoebel network can make any improvement SONICALLY.

    A foot of crappy multistrand attached to the zoebel cant give an improvement either. Maybe it doesnt detract. I cant see it improving though?

    Personally, if you have the ISOLDA Id say keep it - those Zoebels make it a more flexible cable and you never know what amp you might buy in the future

    :)
    Chris
     
    bottleneck, Jul 6, 2004
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  16. Alex S

    merlin

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    Nicely put Rewster :)

    a very evenhanded response.

    WM you are wrong on the Shunyata thing IMO. The ones you so eloguently refer to as rich and slow share the same copper as most of the rest of the range, but differ by using the Fesi compound which has the effect of introducing supreme naturalness ;) Those that simply rely on DCT copper (Taipan etc) sound hard in the upper mids and rather forward IMO. So I suspect you are getting your Shunyata's mixed up, and don't forget that my hardness is your transparency ;)
     
    merlin, Jul 6, 2004
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  17. Alex S

    LiloLee Blah, Blah, Blah.........

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    Essentially you are right Chris. It does depend on the amp and how stable they are into a capacitive cable. It they are unstable they will oscillate cause harshness to the sound or worst yet blowing the amp.
     
    LiloLee, Jul 6, 2004
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  18. Alex S

    PeteH Natural Blue

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    I've just asked you about this over on HFC actually, but as you're here now I may as well ask you again. :)

    I'm geniunely curious here, materials science not being my field - how are the changes in microstructure attributed to DCT (in terms of dislocations closing up) thought to come about in the case of pure copper?
    -196C is, you'd have thought, not the most obvious temperature at which to carry out an annealing process.
     
    PeteH, Jul 6, 2004
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  19. Alex S

    wadia-miester Mighty Rearranger

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    Mike,
    So your going attribute the sound of the Shunyata Rich and slow down to purely the FESI rfi removing granuals then?, if your saying that core cable is indentical? humm....
    Various alloy/blends also exhibit different sonic characteristics when subjected to Cryoing, not all benefical, dependent on the 'mix', also the mechical properties, can be dramatical altered too. and this is not always benefical in certain applications.
    Also the the intial purity of the material plays a part too, there is a technique of casting copper with a so called single grain structure, by continuious casting, ie: pouring the molten copper through into a heated mold, it doesn't 'edge set' and cools at a more uniformly even rate, therefore dramiticaly reducing the amounts of impurities and promoting more even grain boundaries (alledgely just the one hence the 'Zero crystal' tag).
    CT, certainly can help, Torridials, circuits boards, discretes, heat sinks as well as cables can and do benefit in our experiance, when we design new signal transmission devices, we always do CT versions, and they are tested in the final listening too, though not always are they used.
    Keep an open mind, and use your ears, though have you even considered what happens to dct wire, once your've soldered it ?.
     
    wadia-miester, Jul 6, 2004
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  20. Alex S

    rewster

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    :) Pete H.

    (Nice Dory BTW!)

    Sorry not to have answered your question previously, not intentional, I'm a bit careful on the forum as it's all too easy to been seen to be pushing yourself too hard if you have a trade connection, as I do. That said I'll give a straight answer, that has to be pretty basic or it will look like I'm intentionally overstaying my literary welcome ;) For a picture of the cable in question, and how our process is evidenced see the weblink below, and look at the science section.

    Copper is a crystalline structure, the Earth has an ambient temperature which in the great scale of things, doesn't vary too much, there's the start point.

    When copper cools from liquid to solid, it can't happen uniformly, so the outside cools more quickly than the inside, at this point the grain of the copper is formed in an irregular way. The irregularities cause internal stress and dislocation. In effect the 'perfect' crystal of copper has not been achieved. This is evidenced by dislocation and a coarse grain structure.

    Because the copper exists in the worlds ambient temperature, the crystalline structure stops forming at this point, then industry starts to draw, roll, and deform the copper adding further metallurgical insult to injury which is where DCT comes in.

    Continuing to cool the copper (and losing energy), in a measured and careful way encourages the continued formation of the copper crystals, hence the grain becomes more refined. The effects of this grain optimisation remain once the material is returned to ambient temperature.

    So yes you are right about annealing happening at the other end of the spectrum, and of course it has an effect in returning a measure of ductility to copper after it has been worked, but the DCT process approaches from a start point of allowing the copper to be as close to its own 'ideal' structure as it can.

    In terms of Copper, there are many who find the DCT process makes their listening a better experience, industrially there are many who find for instance ,that their welding electrodes last longer, in both cases the balance of performance and cost are relevant, and the decision to use the process or not rests with the end user.

    Hope that wasn't too plain Pete, but I am aware that it's easy to slip into techy explanations that lose peoples interest, and equally that specifics and reviews of our processing have already been cut and pasted to other sites as others try to promote DCT without the efforts which have gone into our firm.
     
    rewster, Jul 6, 2004
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