Help getting away from Naim amplification...

hi everyone, my current system is:

Naim 82, 250-2, hicap, LP12/Aro/Troika/'Geddon, Squeezebox/NOS DAC, Arcam DV78 all supported by a Mana 5 tier amp rack.

Speakers are Proac D15s, cable is NACA5.

and i'm basically after some advice on getting away from the Naim pre/power. i've had enough of the sound espically the forward mid range, my flat mate has a NAD 3020/Planar 3/mission setup which I find much easier to listen too (although it doesn't have the scale or detail that the Naim does).

I want to keep the LP12/Naim front end and i'll add a prefix powered by the hicap. I've also aquired a Proceed AVP processor which i'm thinking of using as the pre, plus i can run the Squeezebox, DVD player and my PC into its digital inputs.

Basically i'm looking for a interesting power amp to sit between the proceed and D15s, something obsure and unheard of (to the general public). I only intend to run stereo to begin with, eventually i will run rear effect channels.

I've tried running the 250/2 off the proceed, while some aspects sound good the treble is so harsh. Not sure if this is the combination of naim and proceed or the Mana rack or all three!

Options from work are: Arcam, Cyrus, Nad, Bryston or Primare for power amps new, so anything else would have to be second hand.

I was thinking of a Bel Canto Evo4, Bryston 3/4B SST or maybe one of the Primare power amps (Proac use Primare for their demos). TBH i'd consider most things as long as it looks cool and sounds good.
Budget is around £1500 - £2000 and everything will eventually be sat on Hutter racktime.

i'd appreciate thoughts of the matter,

cheers, Si

 

If you prefer the low resolution system of your mate (and yes I do know what I'm talking about having had a Nad 3020 in place of my Naim amp once when it was away being serviced) then I suspect that there is something wrong with some parts of your kit or there are some 'issues' around the set up.

 

I moved from an 82/hicap/200 combo to an Evo2i, which in my opinion wiped the floor with the Naim, despite costing far less.
Try to get a dem if you can. In addition, the PF forum has a good comment about the new BC S300i by a chap who's replaced his Naim gear. Guess the BC sound is right up the street of us ex Naim chaps.

Another thing to ditch will be the Mana. Sounded fine with my old Naim gear, but everything else sounded harsh on it. At least you can get back plenty of dosh, allowing you to pop down to Ikea for some Lack tables.

 

A 3020/planar3 does offer significantly less resolution, no way around that... but its is a perfectly valid choice, yes.

I'd observe that driving the Naim power amp directly off a digital processor will give unpredictable results; it's the Naim pre which does the bandwidth-limiting which is key to the brands' typical presentation (and low IMD).

It doesn't at all surpise me that the result here is described as 'harsh', because the power amp has essentially no input filtering, so spurious HF noise on its input* will upset it (increase IMD). That's not to say the Proceed is defective in any way, simply that it's not the operating condition the 250 is designed for. Neither is it an indictment of the 250.2 - simply a mismatch of aspirations.

(*Almost all D-A conversion these days is bitstream; and very few realise just how much HF noise this process results in - truly god-awful amounts in fact. This is compounded by many 'designers' providing low-order output filters because they just followed the dac datasheet/thought it was enough/would help HF audio response in some way, when in fact nearly the opposite is true.)

 

Swap speakers, see what happens. Your Naim amp does not have a 'forward midrange' or 'harsh treble', its frequency response is flat. The problem will be at one end, knackered Troika, bodged LP12, NOS DAC, or the other, knackered tweeters, badly installed speakers etc.

You may end up with another amp, but it should be for the right reasons. If a system with a 30 year old NAD3020 is more enjoyable then you have completely screwed up your system...

Paul

 

Naim & Proacs? Bloody hell! They are both excellent at what they do well, but they do entirely different things well !!

I'm not surprised if you get the worst of both worlds.

Actually, my first suggestion is to ditch the NACA5 speaker cable - godawful stuff - and the Proacs will show it for what it is - cheap nasty copper. I'll bet that's where a lot of the harshness is coming from. But if the Naim needs it to remain stable ......

 

I wouldnt say Bryston is more of the same as Naim - they are poles apart.

 

Quite.

The Naim is far better than the Bryston!

 

Actually try listening to one

 

Electrocompaniet power and Audiovalve pre is what i changed to from Naim

I have NEVER Regretted it

regards

 

you can get a second hand belcanto from audiogon for about £500.

You'll need to run it through a 110v - 230v converter.

I believe you'll find the scale and detail to be greater than the naim, and a more powerful neutral sound aswell.

It's not hard at the top, but it's not romantic sounding either, so if your setup sounds harsh it's not going to cure that.

Perhaps the right valve amp for that instance.

 

Hi Si


Before chucking huge money at the problem give us some info on you're setup ie.. room size and decor, speaker placement, Hifi rack placement etc... Naim should not be aggressively forward in presentation of course you might just want to change you kit so go ahead find a dealer and borrow some different kit its that easy no-one here has your ears and room.

But why has it always got to be the Naim that is the automatic culprit in a system that people are having problems with look at the cheap setup issues first and then work forward to eliminate these one by one and if you then find that it is the Amps then change them (I presume you liked them at the time you had a demo of them). Having a word with a Naim Dealer first might be a start. It will save you time and money in the long run.


Dean

 

Chord SPM600 maybe?

 

If you decide to stay with the power amp idea, do consider the Lyngdorf SDA2175. Very good value and a stonking performer ~ may be right up your street. You'd also have loads left from your budget

 

The bryston will give an accurate sound and the naim will be inaccurate - if it still sounds wrong with the bryston then the pre and power amp are only part of the problem. However I think changing the pre and power will get rid of the edginess in the mid (which is a naim trademark). Female vocal on naim is virtually unlistenable to me.

 

i'd go for a valve / solid state hybrid. you get a bit of that valve romance but with enough of the solid state kick for you not to miss it. i went from a naim 82/ hi / hi / 250 to an audio synthesis dax decade dac/pre and vinvent spt-100 valve / ss hybrid monoblocks and don;t regret it for a second. of course with analogue sources (i use a squeezebox as my only source) the decade isn;t going to work for you unless you can find one with the adc boards but there are plenty of quality pre's out there.

 

Why not buy a new bel canto amp. The Ref 1000's are fantastic amps. Even the S300 is awsome!

If you want a tast of real exotica I have the Stellvox range comming in next week. The PW1 amps are amazing. But I would say that. It would be better to have a listen for yourself.

 

Buying second hand is fine but grey importing and using step down transformers is a bit silly. If you do buy things from abroad make sure they are suitable for UK mains supply. I made a mistake a few years ago and brought a second hand Mark Levinson 336 from Europe. Every 3-4 Months it went BANG! never again. Another thing I had no back up the thing cost me a fortune.