Jamiroquai Dynamite DualDisc

Dynamic Turtle · Nov 24, 2005

Hey folks,

I see the above album is coming on DualDisc with an "enhanced stereo" version of the album on the DVD layer. Does DualDisc have a fixed sampling rate in this regard i.e. 24-bit 96Khz? There doesn't seem to be any way of telling from the internet listings.

DT

Which again re-inforces (IMHO) the benefits of having ONE smapling rate standard for Hi-rez formats, like SACD's 2.8Mhz

robert_cyrus · Nov 24, 2005

quick google reveals:

RIAA Publishes Final DualDisc Specifications
The Recording Industry Association Of America (RIAA) has finally published the official specifications for the new DualDisc format (DVD on one side/CD-type layer on the other side). The bottom line: The DVD side does indeed meet DVD video and audio standards, while the "CD" side does not fully meet CD specifications. In essence, the "CD" side of a DualDisc is not compatible for playback on some CD and DVD players. As a result, DualDisc packaging must contain a disclaimer notifying consumers about compatibily issues of its "CD" content. For the full details on the RIAA's official DualDisc specifications and licensing requirements, check out the report from High Fidelity Review.
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The DualDisc book also lays out the minimum content requirements for DualDisc, they are:

CD Side
Redbook-compatible audio
DVD Side
Entire audio contents of the CD side in stereo/mono and/or surround sound versions at an audio quality no less than that of the CD side.
At a minimum, the audio shall be in the DVD-Video zone in LPCM stereo/mono (16-bit).
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on wikipedia

DualDiscs appear to be based on double-sided DVD technology such as DVD-10, DVD-14 and DVD-18 except that DualDisc technology replaces one of the DVD sides with a CD. The discs are made by fusing together a standard 0.6 mm-thick DVD layer (4.7-gigabyte storage capacity) to a 0.9 mm-thick CD layer (60-minute or 525-megabyte storage capacity), resulting in a 1.5 mm-thick double-sided hybrid disc that contains CD content on one side and DVD content on the other.

Because the 0.9 mm thickness of the CD layer does not conform to Red Book CD Specifications, which call for a layer no less than 1.1 mm thick, some CD players may not be able to play the CD side of a DualDisc due to a phenomenon called spherical aberration. As a result, the laser reading the CD side might get a "blurry" picture of the data on the disc; the equivalent of a human reading a book with glasses of the wrong strength. Engineers have tried to get around this by making the pits in the CD layer larger than on a conventional CD. This makes the CD side easier for the laser to read; equivalent to the book using bigger print to make it easier to see, even if the person's glasses are of the wrong strength. The inevitable downside to this, however, is that the playing time for the DualDisc CD layer decreases from the standard 74 minutes of a conventional CD to around 60 minutes.

Because the CD layer does not conform to specifications, Philips and Sony have refused to allow DualDisc titles to carry the CD logo and most DualDiscs contain one of two warnings:

"This disc is intended to play on standard DVD and CD players.
May not play on certain car, slot load players and mega-disc changers."
"The audio side of this disc does not conform to CD specifications and therefore not all DVD and CD players will play the audio side of this disc."
The DVD side of a DualDisc completely conforms to the specifications set forth by the DVD Forum and DualDiscs have been cleared to use the DVD logo.
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and continues ...

Criticisms
There are numerous criticisms about DualDiscs, ranging from size to DualDiscs being more fragile than conventional CDs.

[edit]
Consumer complaints
In addition to the possible inability for some CD players to read a DualDisc properly, other consumer criticisms of DualDisc include:

The 1.5 mm-thick disc can get jammed in a very small number of DVD players, slot-loading CD players (such as car CD players) and mega-changers.
For any CD player, the thinner CD layer makes reading the CD side of a DualDisc harder than reading a conventional CD. Thus, anomalies such as small scratches, fingerprints or disc tilt may cause tracking errors easier than those same anomalies would on a conventional CD. Since disc damage is inevitable over time, this can mean a reduction in a DualDisc's effective lifetime as compared to a CD.
Since both sides of the disc are used for data, a label cannot appear on either side of the disc. The only way that a consumer knows which side is CD and which is DVD is by looking at the center ring of the disc where it is marked.
[edit]
Manufacturer warnings
A number of electronics companies such as Lexicon [11], Marantz [12], Mark Levinson [13], Onkyo [14], Panasonic [15], Pioneer [16], and (ironically) Sony [17] [18] have issued statements warning consumers about possible problems with playing DualDisc titles on their equipment. These warnings range in severity from DualDiscs just not working with the equipment to actual damage to the disc and/or equipment.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DualDisc

Dynamic Turtle · Nov 24, 2005

Robert, Whilst I appreciate your post, it doesn't really answer my question, except that I can be assured that the "enhanced stereo" will be no worse than 16/44.1 (which is utterly ridiculous).

DT

No offence intended here btw.

robert_cyrus · Nov 25, 2005

none taken. was interested in these titles too, as i'd seen some advertised.

now i know my cyrus cd player will hate 'em, cos they'll be too thick - i already get a whooshing sound on a cd which is very slightly dished.

and my pioneer dvd player wont like them, as warned by pioneer themselves.

plus there is no definitive sampling rate, only to say that it's at least 16 bit!

griffo104 · Nov 25, 2005

Have you checked your DVD player is compatible with dualdisc ?

I know several manufacturers have said they don't guarentee these things will play as they are thicker than the standard DVD/cd discs.

Just make sure you have checked before it knackers your player.

What the Linn website says about these :

'DualDisc format - is it a supported format for Linn disc players / audio servers?
No - DualDisc is not supported. DualDisc is a disc format with DVD content on one side and 'CD' on the other (see http://www.dualdisc.com for details). The DVD side comprises DVD-Video and/or DVD-Audio content. The 'CD' side is designed to play on CD players but is not in fact a CD as it is not compliant with the Compact Disc Digital Audio Specification (the industry 'Red Book' CD Standard). These discs are also thicker than standard CDs or DVDs.
As these discs are not compliant with current industry standard, Linn cannot guarantee that they will play on our range of disc players and audio servers. Nor can we guarantee that the thickness of DualDiscs will not cause problems for these Linn products Ã¢â‚¬â€œ possibly damage to the product and/or the disc Ã¢â‚¬â€œ if played. Any damage resulting from the playing of DualDiscs will not be covered by the Linn warranty, so using these discs with a Linn disc player or audio server is entirely at the user's risk. '

Don't know what make you have but just be careful.

p.s. this doesn't answer your question either. Also about 90% of dvd-a disks I've got don't even go to 96k sampling rate and are only 24 bit 44k - barely better than cd. Can't see dualdisc being any better.

Dynamic Turtle · Nov 25, 2005

Well, seeing as both my spinners are extremely fussy & have utterly useless transport mechs, it'll probably cause them serious problems :-(

Might as well risk it though, as they could both do with replacing....

DT

Dynamic Turtle · Dec 8, 2005

OK, the disc has arrived and it works fine on both the 900V and 963SA (unusual, as they both have utterly useless transports). For some reason, the "display" function on the 963SA refuses to appear when playing the "high-resolution" stereo track. The 900V does, however. The display says "PCM" and the bit-rate is shown as 1,536 kbps.

Now, AFAIK normal 16/44.1 red-book works around 1.5Mbps. This would imply the "high resolution" stereo track is nothing more than 16/44.1 (or perhaps 16/48?). That is, unless, the highest audio bit-rate that the Sony "display" function can show is 1536Kbps? What would the bit-rate be at 24/96 resolution?

I doubt I'll get a proper response from the record company. In fact, I have absolutely no idea who I should contact in this regard to confirm/deny my suspicions?

Rgds,
DT

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