Krell KAV 400xi integrated

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi and General Audio' started by michaelab, Dec 5, 2003.

  1. michaelab

    michaelab desafinado

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    Heard one of these beasties today and was very impressed. For various reasons, mostly to do with likelihood of being able to audition at home my new integrated shortlist has narrowed considerably to just two contenders, the Krell KAV-400xi and the SimAudio i-5. At one stage I'd even eliminated the Krell because according to their literature and the Hifi choice review it's 50cm wide which would be way too wide for my rack. In actual fact it's about 44cm wide which is no problem at all - looks they still haven't got the hang of the metric system over there :rolleyes:

    I won't say much more about the Krell because I'm going to be hearing it at home next Wednesday. I might even be able to arrange a SimAudio i-5 to compare it against. Should be interesting :)

    Only galling thing is that the Krell costs 4000 Euros here (about the same as the £2700 it costs in the UK) whereas in the US it costs just $2500 so some asshole somewhere is pocketing roughly £1200 quid per unit (or more, since they almost don't buy them in the from Krell in the US for the US retail price) brought to Europe as payment for filling out a few customs forms :bub:

    Some level of markup to cover importing costs and VAT, fair enough but nearly double the US price? That's just plain daylight robbery :inferno:

    Michael.
     
    michaelab, Dec 5, 2003
    #1
  2. michaelab

    titian

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    Michael

    One thing I learnt is to be careful with these statements. I also get/got very angry about these prices, so much that I always found a way to get them directly from the States.
    It is very easy to critize these price policies especially when you never owned a company with a few employees (don't take this personally). In Switzerland the distributor of Krell, with other hiend products, need a quite a big building to store their units and to do the repairs. They have also quite a lot of employees and do a lot of publicity. This all cost money, especially the social costs which nobody talks about are quite high and have to be paid even if no units are sold.
    With this I don't mean they are poor but on the other side these companies don't swim in gold!

    I don't know if it is better to pay much less but have no/less service: if something goes wrong you have to send the unit somewhere in europe or in the states for repairs. Or if you order a unit you have to wait a few months because they don't store any units in your country.
    For me it is clear: these units cost too much and therefore if I want one, I would try to find one second hand (like I did with mine).
     
    titian, Dec 5, 2003
    #2
  3. michaelab

    julian2002 Muper Soderator

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    michael,
    there's profit to take into account too but as you say over 100% markup (i doubt the importer pays US retail prices) is taking the wee a bit. the trouble is krell is one of those names that can charge what the market will bare so like bmw, mercedes and other big 'brands' you have to pay what they ask if you want that product.
    have you looked into importing it yourself?
    cheers

    julian
     
    julian2002, Dec 5, 2003
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  4. michaelab

    michaelab desafinado

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    titian, I know what you're saying but I think the level of markup in this case is a little bit extreme.

    I have thought about importing myself but it's quite a hassle even assuming I'd find someone in the US even willing to ship to Europe as the manufacturers tend to frown on this. Then I'd have the voltage conversion issues and, as titian says, the hassles with service if there was ever a problem with it. Also, the warranty on US bought kit may only be valid in the US. I went through a similar process when thinking about ordering my digital camera from the states and in the end I bought it in Europe as the disadvantage (much higher price) outweighed the disadvantages.

    I've bought pretty much all my hifi gear upto now 2nd hand but I think finding a s/h or ex-dem KAV-400xi will be tough and, lastly, I think it would be unethical now that I've spent 2 hours at a dealer listening to it and he's bringing it to my house for me to hear it in my system. After that effort to turn around and say, "thanks for everything, now I'll get a 2nd hand one or import from the US" is pretty out of order IMO.

    If I get one, I'll be getting it from the dealer. I only hope he can sort me out with a reasonable discount...

    Michael.
     
    michaelab, Dec 5, 2003
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  5. michaelab

    titian

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    Michael

    did you try any other units of the same price class?
    Which ones?
     
    titian, Dec 5, 2003
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  6. michaelab

    michaelab desafinado

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    Titian, I haven't made a decision yet but I have heard the SimAudio i-5 in my system and I liked it a lot. I've also head the i-5 on other occasions and it never failed to impress me. At the new price it's only slightly cheaper than the Krell.

    The other amps I had on my original shortlist were the Gryphon Callisto 2100 and the Belcanto eVo2i but it's as good as impossible for me to be able to hear either in my system at home so unfortunately I had to rule them out. When I'm spending 4000 Euros I want to have heard the thing at home in my system before buying! If it was second hand then maybe I could take a risk but with new prices there's too much to lose if you don't like it.

    If you caught my other thread about amps you'll see that I have the additional limitation of an amplifier that has a unity gain or "AV bypass" mode so I can integrate it easily with my AV system. That cuts down the choices dramatically.

    I had also initially thought about going pre/power, particulary building my own power amp based on the LC Audio ZAPPulse digital amplifier modules but in the end I ditched the idea as too complicated. I've always been a fan of integrated amps and for me they make the most sense.

    Michael.
     
    michaelab, Dec 5, 2003
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  7. michaelab

    Legzr1

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    Been thinking about the Krell 400 myself as an upgrade to my aged 300i.
    One thing to bear in mind here is the fact the model the 400 supercedes,the 300il,was actually between £1200-£1500 more expensive depending where you look.
    So,in reality you're saving over £1000 buying the 400 rather than the 300il - thats the argument i'm going to use with my 'other half' - wish me luck :)
     
    Legzr1, Dec 5, 2003
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  8. michaelab

    michaelab desafinado

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    I realise that the 400xi is quite a bit cheaper than its predecessor - owners of 300iLs must be really pleased :devil:

    The release of the 400xi seems to have unleashed a flood of 300iLs onto the used market but the poor bastards will have to lose a lot of money as they now have to undercut the brand new 400xi by some margin!

    You have a 300i and you like it? Most opinions I've heard about the 300i vary from "it's a bit harsh" to "it's totally unlistenable" :eek: I've never heard it myself though. 300iL was apparently a lot better though.

    Michael.
     
    michaelab, Dec 5, 2003
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  9. michaelab

    Legzr1

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    Hear what you're saying about the 300i re: harshness but as with all things its a matter of taste - there's no way I would ever partner it with some of the 'brighter' speakers out there but it sounds fine with the rather laid back Kef 3.2's.
    I'd be interested to hear from those that find it 'totally unlistenable' - what sort of kit do they normally listen to,what kit was it connected to etc etc.
    I've also noted the market has dropped for the 300il - there'll be a few bargains to be had me thinks.
    Have you heard the 300il?
    Far smoother than the 'i' - this was with the 280cd player driving B&W 805N.
     
    Legzr1, Dec 5, 2003
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  10. michaelab

    skp574

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    I listened to a KAV-400xi with KAV-280cd with on my B&W 805N signatures. It was a good setup but chaning the cdp over to an AR CD3MKII was amazing. A big difference. Music was just more listenable. This combo goes together really well IMHO.

    I can't wait to take delivery of them...
     
    skp574, Dec 7, 2003
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  11. michaelab

    merlin

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    Come on then Michael, spill the beans:rolleyes:

    We have money on the result so tell us!
     
    merlin, Dec 11, 2003
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  12. michaelab

    michaelab desafinado

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    Well, unfortunately couldn't hear the Krell last night (it was double booked :rolleyes: ) but it's coming to ZeroGain towers this evening. Have had the SimAudio i-5 in my system now for a couple of days and I like it.....a LOT :)

    Michael.
     
    michaelab, Dec 11, 2003
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  13. michaelab

    Robbo

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    Sim.... mmm... lovely:D
     
    Robbo, Dec 11, 2003
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  14. michaelab

    skp574

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    Is the Krell in high demand. I feels as though I've been waiting ages for mine. Well actually coming up to two weeks.
     
    skp574, Dec 16, 2003
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  15. michaelab

    Legzr1

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    Apparently this is the case - finding it difficult to track down a dealer local with one to demo.
    This was never the case with the 300i,500i and 300il - perhaps there's a moral here ;)
     
    Legzr1, Dec 17, 2003
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  16. michaelab

    michaelab desafinado

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    ...and now that it's just won all those awards for "best integrated" :SLEEP: I don't see the situation improving.

    In Portugal the situation is similar, selling like hot cakes.

    Glad I opted for the SimAudio i-5 :)

    Michael.
     
    michaelab, Dec 17, 2003
    #16
  17. michaelab

    garyi Wish I had a Large Member

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    "Integrated' amp at these prices. are you sure. The Benefits of pre/power should be a MAJOR consideration. Big transformer next to the preamp section. eehh. are you really sure. OK single box and all that but you can prove that this is not really the way forward but if you've been seduced by the blue LED then fine. But.. Hi-Fi forum. hmmmm.. is it. heavens. Music centre. ipod, compression. fudge. you know what I'm sayin. eehhee. yo is baaaahhd
     
    garyi, Dec 17, 2003
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  18. michaelab

    merlin

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    Integrateds rock;)

    Worrying about transformers and preamp circuits is really harking back to the vinyl days, when the delicate phono stage was incorporated into the preamp.

    Today's integrateds don't IMO lose out in any area to pre/powers at the same price, good examples can really sing.

    It's unfortunate that the old pre/power myths still survive, but I guess why sell one box when you can convince someone to buy two;)

    Does anyone know of a VALID reason why integrateds are a bad idea?
     
    merlin, Dec 17, 2003
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  19. michaelab

    stumblin Kittens getting even...

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    I had a big argument about this over on WHF forum. I found no support - I'm glad to see a like minded person!

    Pre-power combo's have their own set of disadvantages. You have another set of cables being the main one, more aerials, more insertion loss, more RFI susceptability, we never take this into account.

    At high values one would expect better quality power supplies for one thing (nice holmgren toroidal jobs or the like) that won't 'contaminate' so much and as Merlin says, the preamps really aren't so delicate anymore.

    Plus think about it. Two boxes = two set's of markups. Two lots of delivery costs. Two lots of overheads to recoup. Two lot's of packaging. Two lot's of non-function related costs (stuff like the case and leds and buttons). So you may find that in your $4000 pre-power combo only $2000 has gone into the actual sound. But your $4000 integrated may have $3000 going into the sound.

    Though as always, it's the ears that tell - just don't assume that two boxes = better.
     
    stumblin, Dec 17, 2003
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  20. michaelab

    Doug

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    Could it be that a transformer has an electro magnetic field!!!

    Just a thought!

    Doug
     
    Doug, Dec 17, 2003
    #20
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