Life without Haydn

Discussion in 'Classical Music' started by Herman, Aug 16, 2003.

  1. Herman

    Herman

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    Life without Haydn would be very bad indeed. In some respects I regard him as the only true "Classical" composer. Mozart was really a crazy romantic at heart, and Beethoven was truly about pushing the envelope rather than a Meister der Beschränkung. Haydn has this unique poise, humor and consolation that reminds one of the best of antique classical art.

    Perhaps his biggest downside is he wrote so damn much - no Beschränkung there. I may have my figures wrong, but hose huge collections of string quartets (77), piano trios (43), symphonies (109) are daunting. I love 'em, but it's so hard to choose which one you're going to listen to.

    In fact some of my most played Haydn pieces are the single piano sonata Horowitz played on his famous 1966 Carnegie Hall concert. It's the one in F major (Hob 16:23), and Horowitz plays it as a big love song.

    Another favorite is the A flat major one Sviatoslav Richter plays on a Live Classics issue of 1992 concert in Schliersee (wherever that may be), which I can only read as a love song to music itself, especially the trill

    Anyone else has favorite Haydn pieces?

    Herman
     
    Herman, Aug 16, 2003
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  2. Herman

    tones compulsive cantater

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    I've always been partial to the trumpet concerto, which is one of the trumpet concertos, the other being the Hummel. Curiously, they were written for the same man, Anton Weidinger the Esterhazy court trumpeter, who also happened to be a born tinkerer, and the two concertos were written for different versions of Weidinger's keyed truimpet. I have a number of different versions (André, Hardenberger, Marsalis), but I always come back to one made by Gerard Schwarz with the Los Angeles Chamber Orchestra for Delos, with the Haydn on the A side and the Hummel on the B side.

    The Masses are also excellent. I have a number of them done by Trevor Pinnock and the English Concert. Pinnock seems to have the magic touch with this music and beautifully brings out all the drama and colour. I don't know anyone who does it better.

    I was looking at an edition of the London symphonies yesterday in Musik Hug in Zürich, going cheap. Blast you, Hermann, now I know I'll be going back again...
     
    tones, Aug 16, 2003
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  3. Herman

    Herman

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    I'm only doing this for your best

    The London symphonies are astounding. I believe you have to wait till Brahms 2 - 4 and Dvorak 7 - 9 to encounter a like expression of success in serious music that is still successful today. There's just such tremendous potency in the music. In Haydn's London symphonies the E flat major symphony is my favorite, and my favorite recording is (obviously) by the Concertgebouw and Harnoncourt. Which set are you considering?

    I noticed I had failed to mention the exact coordinates of the A flat major sonata Richter is playing. It's Hob XVI : 46.

    Herman
     
    Herman, Aug 16, 2003
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  4. Herman

    tones compulsive cantater

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    Re: I'm only doing this for your best

    Can't remember, I'm afraid - I was having a quick browse before my train came (Hug is only a couple of hundred metres from Zürich Hauptbahnhof (much too close for comfort!)) and I had only time to think, "Hmmm...." I have no CD Haydn symphonies, only LP, and as CD is my medium of choice, perhaps it's time I did something about it.
     
    tones, Aug 16, 2003
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  5. Herman

    titian

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    Herman,
    if you like so much Haydn, then the Haydn Edition is that what you need.
    Antal Dorati is conducting the complete cycle of the symphonies with the Philarmonia Hungarica. Maybe the recordings on CD are not the best what you can get today but the interpretation is valued very high. I also heard the Toscanini version (mono) of the 88, 94, 99, 101 and I was very impressed.
    Then there is Marriner's version.

    Also in the Haydn Edition there are all his piano works with Buchbinder (!!), his Stringquartetts with the Aeolian-Quartett (I have them but they are still in my waiting list to be heard) and all the Masses. If you have a good TT get the LPs which I consider much better quality then the cheap reissues on CDs. Yes the cheap CD reissues are poorly done, I suppose just to sell "old" stuff again without investing much money.

    I personaly can live without Haydn. Actually I can live without Beethoven and Bach. Also without any other composer, even without my favourite Shostakovich (did you hear that Graham!), as long as the other composers are there.
    :rolleyes:
     
    titian, Aug 17, 2003
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  6. Herman

    Herman

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    Oh but I have shitloads of Haydn. I have the complete symphonies by Adam Fisher and the Austro Hungarian Haydn Orchestra (the cheap Brilliant box), and the London symphonies in the great Harnoncourt recording with the Concertgebouw Orchestra plus the Paris symphonies by Dutoit / Montreal. Dorati? In the seventies my mother used to have a colleague who played a single symphony at dinner time every night, working his way through the entire cycle this way.

    BTW the symphonies are not my favorite Haydn works, and came rather late to them. I think Haydn is a great creator of composer - performer - listener intimacy (at the time the latter two used to be one and the same). I have been living with his chamber music for as long as I can remember. I have the complete Piano Trios in the unbeatable Beaux Arts Trio box (vinyl and cd). as so often once the Beaux Arts Trio has been there it's useless to try another recording (and I mean the Beaux Arts from the sixties and seventies). I have lots of seperate recordings of the string quartets (vinyl: Fine Arts, Tatrai, Juilliard, Amadeus), plus the recent complete box by the Angeles Quartet. Brendel has a very nice four cd box of piano sonatas, and I have a couple of vinyl volumes of John McCabe's attempt at a complete piano cycle. Pletnev is a Haydn performer, too.

    So I'm not lacking for Haydn. (Perhaps you are.;) ) On hearing the Richter performance I was just struck by the fact that BIG performers like Richter and Horowitz do so well when they pick their single favorite piece from this huge catalogue.
     
    Herman, Aug 17, 2003
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  7. Herman

    GrahamN

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    Re: I'm only doing this for your best

    Hang on - what about that guy that crops up from time to time with a fair following - Ludwig I think he's called ;) . I notice you also exclude "his tenth", which is actually my favourite Brahms.

    Which Eb do you mean? 99 or 103? If the latter I think I'm with you on that.

    As I'm not the greatest lover of the classical period (not to overstate things ;) ) I came to Haydn only fairly recently, but I have to agree that the London Symphonies are great. I have the Concertgebouw under Sir Colin (all twelve on two Philips Twofers if you're interested Tones) - and love them. The place he really scores is in an irrepressible cheerfulness and has an earthy quality - they never seem to be too far from a rustic village dance. Even when they do start to get a bit courtly there's also this underlying urge to kick over the traces and have a knees up (maybe like teenagers trying to be grown-up and serious at a formal dinner?). I find these to be the discs of choice to help me through particularly tedious/trying times at work (I first listened to them, all 12 straight through, during one all-nighter). I quite like Pinnocks "Sturm und Drang" box too, but am not nearly so enamoured of the Paris set (Bruggen/O.18th.Cent) - far too close to Mozart for my tastes :(.

    The late quartets (Kodaly/Naxos) seem to go more to the heart though. Was quite impressed by his last Sonata I heard at a concert at the beginning of the year, so maybe I should check out a few more of those.

    I think I'm with Titian though on the basic premise - I think I'd go barmy if I had to listen the the output of only one composer (however vast that may be) for the rest of my days.
     
    GrahamN, Aug 17, 2003
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  8. Herman

    tones compulsive cantater

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    Thanks, Graham, the discs I saw briefly and whose details I didn't absorb were on two-for-one offers, so they might be the Davis ones. So, sometime this week, I shall embark on a Haydn seek.
     
    tones, Aug 17, 2003
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  9. Herman

    Herman

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    Graham, taking about Haydn's London symphonies , Brahms' 2 - 4 and Dvorak's 7 - 9 symphonies, I meant contemporary success. I may be wrong, but I have the feeling Beethoven's symphonies were not quite such astounding public successes as Haydn's or Brahms's were - after all these guys were getting quite rich, and Beethoven sure wasn't.

    There's a specific feel to works of arts (visual, literature, music) that fully meet the expectations of the public at the time, and stretch it a little bit, but don't strain it. There's lots of works of art that are very succesful at the time, but they soon fall by the wayside.I believe the works I mentioned are exceptional in that they were fabulously succesful in their own time, and still are - even more, they have that confident sound of success.

    When we're talking about Beethoven I would nominate some of his middle period works for this category, like the Eroica and the 3d Piano Cto. But, you know, because there's some much to follow yet, it isn't the same as those final symphonies Brahms, Haydn and Dvorak wrote.

    Obviously this is all fairly subjective.

    Herman
     
    Herman, Aug 17, 2003
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  10. Herman

    GrahamN

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    Ah...that makes a lot more sense. Following on to your subsequent point, how much Cherubini and Spontini do we hear now!. I was interested in going to see "La Vestale" last year (particularly since Berlioz rated it so highly), but the reviews of the music and performance were so unanimously appalling (and some friends who went said they were still being excessively polite :eek: ) I decided to do something more useful instead (like browsing an internet forum :rolleyes: ).

    How about Mendelssohn's later symphonies for pretty consistent popularity from 'then' until 'now' (although he does seem to have had a bit of a bad patch in the popularity stakes recently)?

    Any views on Sir Colin's rendition of the Londons vs the Harnoncourt?
     
    GrahamN, Aug 17, 2003
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  11. Herman

    tones compulsive cantater

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    I have a feeling that that's not quite correct, Hermann. Haydn remained tethered to the Esterhazys for most of his life (he even wore a servant's uniform), so I don't think he got too rich. Brahms for sure had a comfortable existence. However, I believe that Beethoven left a substantial estate when he died. I also believe that his symphonies were very popular. The shocker was the Eroica - after his first two neo-Mozartian efforts, people simply weren't ready for this trail-blazing monster. Once that shock was over, the rest were well received, even the ninth (which the critics didn't like). By this time he was pretty nearly completely deaf, so he had to be turned around in his front row seat to hear the enthusiastic applause.
     
    tones, Aug 18, 2003
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  12. Herman

    lordsummit moderate mod

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    Quite right Tones, Haydn remained 'in service' for most of his life, although I think he was paid off before he came to London and wrote those symphonies. It was Mozart who really changed the status of composers from servant to artist.
    Am surprised you've not mentioned Haydn's Magnum Opus the Creation...Undoubtably one of the major achievements of the Classical period. I also like the opus 76 Quartets, and the Seven stations of the cross.
    I can't split Haydn and Mozart as composers, but I'd rather listen to Mozart. If you are talking contemparious Mozarts symphonies probably push the boundaries just as much as Haydn, the counterpoint and motivic development in the Jupiter springs to mind. The reason you see Mozart as 'romantic' is that he wrote in an operatic style. Listen to any of his music and you will hear a melody and an accompaniment. Haydn's music followed on from a more instrumental tradition.
     
    lordsummit, Aug 18, 2003
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  13. Herman

    Herman

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    I may have romanticised Beethoven lack of financial rewards indeed. However, Haydn was granted a new Esterhazy contract in 1779 which allowed him to market his work in the big musical centers. He made quite a buck with the Paris symphonies, and after one of the London concerts he noted in his diary he'd made 4000 florins in one single night, which sounds like a cool sum, even though I have no historical conversion table.

    I'm afraid I don't quite agree with LSummit's reasons why I would consider Mozart a romantic. First thing I don't necessarily consider Mozart to be later in time and music history than Haydn. The London symphonies, for instance, are of a later date than Mozart's final triad. Haydn's opus 76 quartets are from 1798, thirteen years later than Mozart's big six.

    Why I think Mozart is a more romantic composer does have a connection with his opera's in that Mozart is more interested in pursuing subjective states of mind and feeling in his music (as one is supposed to do with one's opera's characters). All Mozart's best music, whether they be piano concerto's or string quartets seem to me to be designed to arouse pretty strong emotions, which obviously became the mission of all composers from the Romantic Era.

    Haydn on the other hand seems to be more interested in portraying states of mind and emotions in a more classical, poised manner: not to arouse strong feelings, but rather to create detachment and peace of mind (which of course is a feeling to, I know).

    Are you really sure you can't tell Haydn and Mozart apart? Of course occasionally Mozart opted for a Haydn-style finale, but Mozart's music (again: his best works) is always much busier, if only because he seems to work from the inside out. There's much more going on in the middle voices, complicating the harmonies. Haydn works more from the outside in: in string quartets you either want to be the first violin or the cello. In Mozart the viola is always doing wild and weird stuff. So on that point I would definitely disagree with the point about Mozart's music being easily broken down in melody and accompaniment. This is a characteristic of his last, sometimes rather desperate works, like the K 595 piano concerto, the clarinet concerto and the Deutsches Singspiel Der Zauberflöte - but this late development is only so remarkable because previously his textures had been so very dense.

    But, again, I may be wrong.

    Herman
     
    Herman, Aug 18, 2003
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  14. Herman

    lordsummit moderate mod

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    Yes I can tell them apart, what I meant was that they were revolutionary in different ways, Mozart with the way he developed vocal music and brought that into his instrumental music, Haydn for his use of motifs' and the way he developed them. If you want to think of it another way Mozart thought in a Linear manner when he wrote music, Haydn was much more of a vertical thinker.

    To be quite honest as far as I can see it, Mozart is more romantic than Haydn, but as I am sure you know the classical music of the period reflected the movement of the enlightenment that had swept Europe from about 1780 onwards. There was much more interest in scientific principles and a move towards a 'perfection' when it comes to architecture, the excess decorations of the baroque were thrown away to be replaced by a much more austere but still beautiful architecture. As far as I am concerned romanticism is an abstract concept that had not been considered yet. The first true romantic was probably Schubert, he was certainly the first I can think of that took the care to really put dynamic markings on his music, and to use specific styles to convey a second message in his music. Mozart and Haydn never reached beyond the conventions of their time. They may have pushed the envelope, but nothing truly radical can be ascribed to their music. They both perfectly represent 'The Classical Period' but in no way did either really lead to the huge changes that Schubert, Beethoven and Listz forced upon music.
     
    lordsummit, Aug 18, 2003
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  15. Herman

    tones compulsive cantater

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    The London symphonies I saw were Bruggen/O18C. As a musically-inclined Julius Caesar might have said, I came, I heard, I purchased. I liked what I heard (all your fault, Hermann...). I did see the Harnoncourt set there, but at three times the price, I forwent it. Nicky and the Concertgebouw are good, but I doubt whether they are three times as good.
     
    tones, Aug 21, 2003
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  16. Herman

    mtl

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    Yes, the Brüggen set is truly excellent, isn't it? When i was looking for a set of the London symphonies I originally went for Bernstein (NYP?) - which is ok but quite different from the rest of my Haydn symphony collection (the Hogwood edition on L'oiseau lyre, which Decca stopped at volume 10 of 15...:inferno:
    Then I was looking for some Haydn for my brother's birthday and got the Brüggen - heard - and purchased a second set.
    Recently I bought the final volume of Gardiner's series of the six late masses (Heiligmesse and Paukenmesse) which I like very much.
    But what I'd really miss if I was to live without Haydn are the string quartets (especially op. 33). If you haven't heard the Quatuor Mosaïques with Haydn you've missed something!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 27, 2003
    mtl, Aug 26, 2003
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  17. Herman

    tones compulsive cantater

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    Hi there, MTL, wie geht's in der Tiefschweiz?

    Funny you should mention that...I came across the Gardiner masses in Hug in Basel on Saturday, and was surprised that it was SFr39 for 2 CDs. So I bought the Nelson and Theresien masses. Excellent performances, and at that price a bargain. I think I'll be indulging in some more.

    P.S. You should talk to that other Tiefschweizer Titian - he has a hi-fi and a record collection to kill for (see the thread "three lunatics in the asylum")
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 26, 2003
    tones, Aug 26, 2003
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  18. Herman

    mtl

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    Tiefschweiz:Quad: ?
    You should know better: Zentralschweiz is the term:newbie: !
    "Tiefschweiz" reminds me more of the Wallis. "Have" to go there next week for a couple of concerts on 2222m / 7290 feet and it'll take me something like 6 hours to get there:SLEEP:

    Gardiner:
    The 2CDs for the price of 1 does also count for the Schoepfungsmesse & Harmoniemesse set. Among the soloists: Christoph Prégardien - tenor and Ruth Ziesak - soprano!
    Only the third and last set with Heiligmesse and Missa in tempore bello is on 1 CD.
    Talking of Gardiner. One of my favourite recordings by him (not taking his wonderful Bach Passionen or the Monteverdi Marienvesper into account) are the Mozart piano concertos with Malcolm Bilson, Robert Levin and Melvyn Tan on fortepiano. You know the recording?

    Titian:
    It's good to know that there are people out there like him. Makes me and my hifi seem rather harmless in comparison (but then again: aren't we all harmless in comparison...?). Next time my wife complains about the ever growing CD collection (but it's "only" about 3-4,000) or questions my wish to upgrade my turntable or to invest in some Grado RS2s I might mention Titian... ;) Anyway, seems you were quite enjoying yourselves at Titians, and it's sort of comforting to know that you still like to listen to your own system after listening to his.
     
    mtl, Aug 29, 2003
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  19. Herman

    tones compulsive cantater

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    As I understand the term, "Tiefschweiz" is the original three "Waldstatten" cantons, Uri, Schwyz and Unterwalden - Wallis/Valais are just a bunch of Napoleonic Johnny-come-latelys! Since you say "Zentralschweiz", you must live in the fourth of the Waldstatten, Luzern!

    I've got some of the Gardiner Mozart piano concertos - as you say, nice performances. The Monteverdis were in deep financial trouble not so long ago. I hope they come out of it, because the loss of Gardiner and his group would be a tragedy for the world of music. I keep hoping that they'll release all the cantatas recorded on the Pilgrimage - the ones I've seen (on the DVD made at St. David's) are great. Most of all I want, want, want that BWV190 with which they ended off in New York!

    The Titian trip was great and his system was staggering (and so was his wall-to-wall record collection!). He can't help himself - he buys the stuff reflexively rather than reflectively. I'm also glad that I can listen to my system still - this was the big worry about going there!

    By the way, my Grado dealer in Zürich thought the SR125s were the best value for money of the Grado headphones, so I got them and a Graham Slee "Solo" headphone amp. I also like Beyerdynamic 'phones (I do a lot of headphone listening, because the girls (21 and 18) aren't wild about Dad's choice of music), and I see there's a new top model out. I'm tempted to try, once I've recovered from the pain of acquiring Sideshowbob's Meridian 588.
     
    tones, Aug 29, 2003
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  20. Herman

    mtl

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    Indeed, from my office - where I'm sitting in right now - I look right on the mighty Pilatus with the Vierwaldstätter See (23.5°C!!!) and our lovely concert hall (KKL) in the foreground.
    The view could be worse I guess...
     
    mtl, Aug 29, 2003
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