Lowther

The wad 6550 was going to be my next venture but Im more than happy with my amp and I fancy a new pair of speakers. As I come froma family of joiners and carpenters and we have plenty of woodworking machinery at work I think doing my own would be the way to go. Plus I can get medite mdf at very reasonable prices .

Ive seen these:

http://www.lowtherloudspeakers.co.uk/drawings/fiddwg.html

but Ive only just started looking. Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions???

 

bottleneck would be your man here but I've been informed that he is sans internet connection for the next week or so so will be unable to respond immediately...

Michael.

 

oooh lowthers cooooool.

yeah, got phone line problems for a week or two, so I'll only be on now and then.

right, pet subject time!

First phallacy is that lowthers sound boxy and coloured. I don't think they do. What is true IMHO is that the boxes they so often go in make them sound that way. The bigger the horn the less boxy sounding IME. If you ever get the chance to compare Beauhorns B2 (boxy/thin) with the virtuoso (very nice) you'd see it right away.

Basically what I'm trying to say its all in the application with Lowthers, its all in the build of the cabinet.

I haven't heard the Fidelo's so can't comment on them as a design.

Secondly, you will be suprised by how little they take to drive. Over 10w p/ch is overkill. Over 30w is like attaching dynamite - total overkill.

Thats all I really wanted to say. I envy you your woodworking skills and Im sure you will end up with an excellent and innovative piece you can be proud of.

NB
If you can find plans for Virtuoso's I'd reccomend nicking that design. It sounds great (IMO) and isnt that room unfriendly.

NNB
I'd buy the drive units new, because they are thin second hand ones can easily be shagged.

Good luck with the project.

If you go ahead can we have pictures as you go?

 

Heard a pair of Lowther TP1 Corner Horns a couple of years ago. http://www.lowther.com.hk/tp1.htm These were early 60's vintage with updated drivers. Wonderful effortless sound. Amazingly efficient. Lowther drivers in smaller boxes e.g.the original Acoustas, did sound coloured,but these big babies sounded very natural.

 

yes, I had a pair of acousta's for a while.

They still sound great in a lot of ways, but you can hear the box with them.

Other advantages with a single 'full range' (term used loosely) drive unit of course is that there is no crossover.

Top stuff.

 

Thanks for that, I will be buying new drivers, really my budget for new speakers would be around 1K so the money Im saving on buying commercial speakers can be spent on the drivers. Ive not been around this weekend so Im still on the hunt for designs, I'll try and find the Virtuoso's. I had a good chat with papa sanchez and he says its all straight forward.

I'll be going ahead with it and I'll post plenty of pic's, should be good.

 

I built my own speakers using Lowther drivers, DX3's then DX4's The cabinet I built was a Medallion 2 with some modifications. had them for several years, but moved into smaller Condo apartment and had to sell. They produced a wonderful midrange,musically you are there, highs where good but base while very musical lacked omph!,I built a sub for mine. There is lots of information on the Audio Asylum web site, under high efficiency.
Have fun, Bob

 

Hi,

I have heard many Lowthers and related drivers.

First, any of the modern "slimline" Lowther Factory enclosures leave VERY MUCH to be desired. Lowthers where originally designed to be hornloaded with a front horn. Leave that off and invariably the supposedly "Lowther Sound" develops, with an emphasied upper midrange and waek fundamental region but a midbass that comes back. It leads also to a degree to the common shout.

The only Lowthers I have heard and which I could live with incorporate a fronthorn.

That is from the actual Lowther Enclosures the Audiovector (needs pacing against the wall and a reflector though), the Opus 1 and the TP1. Among the Non-Lowthers the Beauhorn Virtuoso is the one of choice and I feel it gives all the above do and then some. ANY of the above can use Subwoofers and IMHO supertweeter.

More or less that is what Tommy Hoerning does, he uses a Lowther with an EQ to offset the rising midrange and cuts the Whizzer off and puts that into a TQWT and then adds a woofer loading in a partially seperate TQWT and a Tweeter above around 8...10KHz. I do like the Hoerning Speakers but they are in some ways a sideway move and dropping the Lowther for a different driver (eg Audax PR170M0) would not make them much different really.

I have heard Lowthers & AER's in the Hedlund Horn. Unbalanced Sound. I heard the Acousta/Medallion. Unbalanced Sound. I heard the various Carfrae horns (Big & small), still unbalanced but a little less so, especially with AER drivers.

I have heard the various current Lowther Slimline & Bicor types (Fidelio, Academy, Bicor), really, really bad, to completely me unlistenable for long periords.

I heard Lowthers in the older Rethm designs (before they switched to Supravox drivers), barely tolerable.

So, basically, unless you are willing to go for a solution incorporating a fairly large front horn you are better off leaving Lowthers be. It is very frustrating to live with something that is exceptiona in some cases and exceptionally bad in others.

Ciao T

 

Interesting point of view there. Ive been invited to listen to some lowthers so that'll give me an idea. At the moment I wont be using lowthers, Ive decided to build my first example using fostex 207e's, their latest 8" full range driver, this is getting very good reviews from users in the US and seems to be a much easier driver to work with and alot cheaper. Im pretty sure I wont be using a hord design at all, there appears to be much more success with quarter-wave TL's such as these www.quater-wave.com. It early days at the moment and Im just looking forward to getting something off the ground.

 

Well, you've got to say things as you seem them in life, and I cant criticize the amount of Lowther based designs you've heard - a lot more than me for sure.

Taking the case of Lowther Acousta's which I lived with for about six months.

In terms of dynamics, clarity, midrange they are truly exceptional. The bass is suprisingly substantial.

There is a slight cabinet colouration, bass doesnt go VERY low, but easily as low as many floorstanders. Very high treble isnt there.

I disagree strongly with the words ''exceptionally bad in some cases/areas''.

Again in the case of Acoustas, I think I've highlighted there weaknesses. They are ''ok'' in these weak areas, and superb in others.

Most other drive units are ''not bad'' in every area.



This last bit is just MHO - but if you are going to go to the trouble of making a large front horn, then why not use a compression horn in the first place? - I think they are even more remarkable than Lowther units.

Such a project I would say is pushing the 1,000 price bracket if quality components and woods are to be used however.

 

There far too many users of these full-range driver designs to say they dont work or are hit-and-miss. Im ploughing on with mine.

 

Hi,

I NEVER said that full range drivers are hit & miss.

I was refering to specific ones. I must also note that my musical taste is so wide ranging that in the end tonal flaws become problems, which they may not be for others.

For reference, over time I have owned many full range speaker systems (and many others) and right now I'm listening to Full Range speakers. But they are neither Lowther nor Fostex and lack the flaws of either. If you are near London, drop in and have a listen.

Ciao T

 

out of curiousity, what makes up your own system thorsten?

 

Hi,

I have recently written (in the context of a fairly argumentative thread in the Audio Asylum - crazy yanks, what did I expect?) a little set of notes on what I listen to musically, what matters to me in music reproduction and finally the current system, I quote below.

Earlier (but fairly recent) versions of the system can be followed here:

http://www.arduman.com/aa/Sayfalar/thorsten/thorsten.htm

Here a piccie of the Tannoy version:



A piccie of what is more or less in use now (slightly different electronics etc, read below) and which was taken at last Years Spring HiFi Show is here:



It should be noted that right now my whole system is commercial/semi commercial, however what is commercialised is in effect to large parts the result of building and testing tons of different stuff DIY myself and with friends (from the London Live DIY HiFi Circle....

Some of my designs and technical articles are found here:

http://thunderstoneaudio.nav.to

My "commercial side" (for completeness, not to plug any of my stuff - if you like to know others views of this, check HiFi World, HiFi News & HiFi Choice for any Shanling 3D Acoustics and/or 3D Sonics Stuff) is here:

http://www.realhi-fi.com/products/sonic.html

Finally, I am running two Yahoo Groups where a lot of my other writings and notes are linked, much really usefull technical info is posted and where I (when I have time) support projects I have published:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thunderstone_audiophile/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thunderstone_technical/

I especially recommend the Files section of the technical group, however Yahoo (not me) requires you to subscribe to Yahoo Groups before you can access them.

Well, that was a pleasantly understaned credit sequence, now here the Text from AA with minor edits to correct spelling/missing words (I'm a little lysdexic and very teutonic):

=========================================================
I'll be listing out what I require from a Music reproduction system and what I currently use and why.

It might be worthwhile to note that I have played French Horn, Guitar and Drums (not to any noteworthy level, but each for a good while) in my youth and that I have worked as sound egineer (including recording classical and popular music) and DJ as well as having designed Pro-Audio (largely Studio) Gear.

And I dislike both headphones and nearfield conditions for "listening for pleasure". I find them usefull tools for "surgical dissection" of the recording if I'm recording, but the experience is too drastically different from reality for me to enjoy it, in fact, most nearlfild setups I have heard I felt where assaulting and very fatiguing when left without drastic frequency corrections.

First, my music listening is EXTREMELY omnivourus. I listen to a lot of classical. I listen to Jazz. I listen to progessive rock, heavy metal, 80's new romantic, punk, heavy base Rap, Soul, Funk and Reggae, pop ditties and singer songwriter (gal/guy'n'geeetar) stuff. The same system main also does second duty as Cinema Sound system (with the TV's speakers doing center fill-in).

I tend to to prefer live recordings or recordings with a general "live feel" to them. I rarely if ever listen to "audiophile" recordings and/or pressings (if I do it's because of the music), I mostly listen to LP but use CD where I got it. I do have favourite artists and composers, but again way too varied and extensive to mention, short of writing long lists.

In classical music I like most what is called "Early Music" and smallish ensemble "authentic" Baroque and Renaissance Music plus really large scale orchestral works. In Rock/Pop/Rap etc. (shall we call it contemproary popular music?) I like anything with intellectual and social aspirations, stuff that adresses, heart, soul and mind together.

In recent times among the mainstream popular stuff I liked and noticed Black Eyed Peas "Where is the Love", City High "What would you do", Macy Gray "I try", Eminem "Loose yourself", Shakira (everything) which might explain my likes better than a long declamation. I still regulary go clubbing (London is just happening!) with my Wife and enjoy HiNRG Dancefloor stuff as well.

So, any of the above my system needs to cope with. If I put 80's, 90's or 00's Clubland 12" Records on my system must manage club style levels (but better sound).

If I put on intimate small scale Jazz I it needs to that justice.

If I put on Saint Saens Organ Symphony, Mahlers 3rd or Haendels Messiah it needs to cope with that. If I listen to the "Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment" recorded in an old church it needs to transport me into this church.

If there is emotion in the music it needs to convey that. If the music is cold, electronical it needs to convey that. If in a film suddenly Helicopters hover above or battles errupt it needs to handle this gracefully if not at full cinema levels.

To put attributes on this, to me a system needs to produce music first and foremost in a vivid, attention-grabbing, riveting way. I'm bored easily. It must provide a good experience of the recording venue (if present - this can be confusing when listening to multitracked material assembled from different sessions in differnt acoustical envoironments).

If it bring the music into my living room it's wrong, I want it to take me to where the music happens. The fact that musical listening range encompasses so much different material means it also needs to go quite loud without strain. And it needs to do all that in a normal, wife friendly living room and of course it needs to be wife friendly (including usage).

Such things as reasonable tonal accuracy, good levels of detail retrieval so I can recognise a squaking chair or string handeling noise as such and am not stressed in trying to work out if I should worry about the noise or relax are a given (without these it's not even worse listening too except as background noise), if tonality cannot be accurate enough I prefer for a system that errs on the slightly too warm side.

Very important is the portrayal of nuances (Also read Marcus Sauer on "God is in the Nuances at www.stereophile.com) and dynamics, with that I mean dynamic contrast and shading. I notice that many when they refer to "good dynamics" actually talk about compression, not realistic dynamics, for me real dynamics please.

Another core test for a system for me is if it can actually make very poor congested recordings make sense, allow me to hear the music despiet heavy compression and generally muddied up sound.

Now, what do I use to make that happen right now?

Speakers are Supravox Fieldcoil 8" Fullrange Drivers on open baffles with a Sub (sealed Box 2 X 12 " active) below 50Hz and a Supertweeter (Horn) avove 15 KHz.

Using dipoles (open baffles) provides to me the best compromise between size and controlled dispersion. Conventional speakers (especially ones with narrow baffles) interact too much with the acoustic envoironment to allow them to transport me (acoustcially) out of my living room, I rarely ever use(d) such for any amount of time.

The Fieldcoil Supravox drivers (my ones have a different construction to the stock ones to allow them to operate better on open baffles with around 3db less sensitivity and a higher Qt) are pretty much the best wideband driver in current production (I have heard all but Reps), much better than anything Lowther and Fostex ever came up with, ahead of of the 8" & 12" Phy Hp to my ears. Very natural sound, unfatiguing but highly resolving, basically all the music, non of the crud.

Amplifiers right now are basically modernised WE 91 Design WE 300B Single Ended amplifiers on the DIY Hifisupply Lady Day Plus chassis, 2-Stage design with a pentode driver WE 310A plus WE 274A rectifier and well implemented DC Heaters for the output stage (AC was tried but had the usual AC sound which mucks up the music too much for my taste), no negative feedback.

I started listening to these Amp's once finalised with some old new production (late 90's) WE output valves with many hours on them, have not yet felt any reason to change them or anything else in the amps, nothing niggles me or makes me think "I wonder what if"....

I do have several other amp's around BTW, also several other speakers.

As linestage I use a transformer passive based around Stevens & Billington TX-102 MK III. I have not yet found anything better.

The vinyl source is a monsterous, polished aluminum thing from germany with three arms and cartridges, the Phonostage is custom made 2-Stage using a Pentode input preceeded by a S&B TX-103 MK II MC Stepup followed by an inductive RIAA Module followed by a Triode stage (I find that the Pentode 1st stage & triode 2nd Stage combo hits just the right spot in the aural matrix for me every single time and in every single application, music through all triode circuits sound lifeless and stripped down by comparison). The Circuit and Valve complement are a tribute to Siemens/Klangfilm, TAB and Telefunken.

The CD source that is always around is also the DVD Player. It is still a first generation Pioneer (DV505) for good reasons.

This is one of the few DVD Players that used asyncronous reading of the CD and buffered it the data in memory (like it does always for DVD - downside, it won't play CDR's). Plus, in that particular player Pioneer used their best "Legato Link" Dac/Filter combo. Untill Pioneer recently switched to customised versions of Burr Brown DAC's (which sound plain terrible) they had a rather unusual small Japanese Chip maker make them using filter algorythms not unlike Wadia uses. These DAC's are IMHO together with a few others (like Wadia's implementations) the best sounding commercial stuff, you need to go non-oversampling to get a more relasitic and musical presention without trading off detail.

The addition of a good master clock and new analogue stage rounds that off, together with loads of C37 (and C37 derived) tweaking including reinforcing the chassis and drive extensively with "tone wood", C37 laquering plus wooden disks and crystal points at key points inside the player.

C37 and C37 derived tweaking plus various other crazy things are also applied to most other parts of the system and the room (I use for example such things as Harmonica plates hung strategically throughout the soundstage between the speakers).

The analogue stage used to be my own discrete J-Fet design with SE output and no negative feedback. I recently got given a LC Audio Zap Filter (discrete Transistor Anlogue stage with an Amplifier/Buffer circuit structure and no negative feedback) which I fitted to get balanced output and the Zap Filter (once C37 conformant) sounds at least as good, possibly slightly better (too many variables to be sure) as my original circuit did, but I now can use the much better sounding XLR connections (it's the connector itself more than the balanced operation that makes the difference).

Alternatively I have modded Shanling Players generally with passive I/V conversion and a single stage amplifier plus buffer analogue stage using Valves (WE again - I like the sound of WE valves as it happens).

Cables are all my own, the speaker cables are along the lines of nordost but using more and thinner individual conductors. Interconnects are silver/air construction these days with goldplated silver.

So, this gives what I listen to, what I want from the Music and what I use to get there.
================================================

Ciao T

 

No, thats a conclusion Ive come too hence the reason Im going to start with fostex. Id love to drop in and have a listen sadly Im in the metropolis of Chorley, about 10 minutes from the address real hi-fi give in standish (I presume you have dealings with them). I have quite ecletic taste in music but its not as wide ranging as yours.

 

Hi,

And for fun, a list of speakers that I have either owned, had long exposure to for reviewing, have used regulary in Studios or which are at friends where I have heard them repeatedly, I'll try to be chronologial....

It started with some boxes that contained 8" Alnico magnet full range speakers pulled out of old east german Valve TV's and the matching cone tweeters. That wast at age 10 or so... A few years on I build a "High Tech" DIY System with Digital Frequency readout Tuner and a nice all chip Amplifier (those where the early 80!) and needed bigger (read more power handling) speakers so I made a 3-Way with some Tesla (Checz) 10" Woofers and Videoton (Hungaria) 2" Dome Midranges and 1" Dome tweeters.

Later I could afford commercial speakers and went through Heli KG K24 (4 X 6.5" Fullrange), Heli K20 (1 X 8" Fullrange Spherical enclosure) Russian S-70 & S-90 (actually excellent copies of top of the range Sony Studio Monitors of the time) to Coral BX-1201 (12" & 8" woofer system, 5" Wideband, 3" cone tweeter and horn supertweeters, 100db/W/m).

From there I went to multiple speakers, a DIY "Tower" with dual 8" RFT Woofers which later included MFB (Motional Feedback) a 5" Wideband and first a 1" Dome and later a modified Piezo Motorola "Superhorn" (yup, these PA thingeys we called Lemon Squeezer) as Tweeter, completely active system using Chip Amp's and current feed on the Midrange for the living room.

I had a number of Monitors for what was the bedroom converted to Mixdown studio, among them the Schulze KSP215 (Alnico) Fullrange Driver in standard RFT Studio Enclosure, later als the superb Schulze THS315 12" Coax and some EV Based Speakers with 15" SP-15 Woofer, 8HD Horn & Driver and T35 Tweeter, all Alnico Magnet system.

I experienced the variety of East german Studio Monitors as well, including the early versions of the MEG RL-900 (excellent active speaker that) in actual studios.

This last collection fell to the Stasi (or whoever seized the assets of people fleeing the East German communist "Republic") when I decided I had enough. What really upsets me is loosing the Schulze Koaxials, a pair just changed hands on E-Bay for 1,200 Bucks....

In the west I dallied with some Burmester gear (A friend worked there) and later largely Pro Gear including a variety of EV and JBL medium sized studio monitors, eventually working up to some JBL 4425's. During that time I also experienced a variety of large format Studio monitors including Urei 813's (great stuff), Tannoy 15", Altec 604's build in, EV Sentry, JBL 44XX Series and less memorable more modern (and boring plus bad sounding stuff). I also played with the idea of getting some ACR/Fostex Klipschorns.

During all that time I also experienced (as used) tons of PA stuff from massive hornloaded things using EV & JBL Drivers over smaller PS systems, even Bose throgh to extreme PA Stuff like the Music Productive "Processor PA" and Community RS880 with Servodrive Bass-Tech 7 Subwoofers, Mayer Sound, Turbo Sound and so on.

After moving out of the Music Scene and moving to the UK, going back to university for a computer degree I ended up with some big square woofer Sony ES 2-Way speakers, had for a time TAD 2-Way with big wooden Horns and 15" Woofers (DIY), build DIY copies of a famous american speaker, had Beauhorn Virtuoso's, DIY with various Goodmans Drivers, had Hoerning Perikles, Orchid PLL1, all sorts of Epos (ES12/14/25), Beauhorn B2 and then 15" Tannoys with now my Dipole Speakers.

The number of more "normal" speakers that have crossed my ways over the years I don't count, they are just to anonymous in stature and sound to be worth noting.

At friends I have/had regular exposure to Quads, DIY ESL's, Acapella, Avant Garde (Duo & Trio), Hedlund Horns, Lowther Acoustas, Bicors and Academies plus really freaked out, far out DIY Systems. A friends Studio has some PMC MB2 modified with a Focal tweeter and driven by a mixture of Cary SE Amplifiers, Krell Solid state on the bass and a BSS digital X-over.

Real HiFi currently also distributes Hyperion (showing that I still have a weak spot for Watt/Puppy style speakers - a friend owns still a Watt3/Puppy2 pair and I like them a lot too).

Anyway, that is my list of memorable speakers over time. I'm sure there will be more.

Ciao T

 

Hi,

With Fostex stay WELL AWAY from any of the Whizzer cone equipped drivers (same problems as lowther, but MUCH MORE so).

The F200A sounds rather good as do the less expensive single cone versions similar to it, plus they work okay in TQWT or Boxes. Downside is they have low sensitivity.

Well, realhi-fi is a distributor, but Matthew has a pair of my Dipoles as his main speakers. Not sure if you can arrange an audition with him, he the business arm and not as entertaining of DIY'ers as I am....

Ciao T

 

Hi Thorsten.

I think I met you briefly at the Heathrow show in 2002 or 2003. I forget which. You had the system shown in the picture, and the lady above was there (your partner I guess?). The music playing at the time was a disk that came with hifi news a year or two earlier. I know because I have a copy!

I enjoyed the open baffle speakers. They made an enjoyable and clean sound I thought. I thought perhaps the horn tweeter was a little close - and therefore over exhuberant. Perhaps a bigger room would have done them more justice.

With your experiences with single ended amps, horn speakers, high sensitivity and vinyl, we do seem to like the same sort of thing.

I'll say hello if you're at the next heathrow show in a few weeks?

Cheers
Chris

NB
Particularly interested in your comments regarding phono stages. I'd love to hear what you've managed to do here.

 

Hi,

That would have been spring 2004 and yes, the lady is my wife.

The tweeter was still being worked on. BTW, we are changing the (optional) supertweeeter to a ribbon.

Sadly not, first nothing really new to show, plus both of us (Real Hi-Fi's Matthew and Myself) have other commitments.

The LCR equalised one is documented on Adnan Ardumans System page. It is very good. A few people have build copies and find them to outperform many very well regarded and highly priced Phonos (Examples include Lamm and Aesthetix).

Eventually Music First Audio will likely launch a more or less affordable version of this circuitry, using a somewhat cutdown and rationlised circuit plus switched supplies to get rid of the massive PSU (which is one of the things that stops us commercialising the Phonostage).

Ciao T

 

Which are good drivers are to use? I've just ordered a couple of weenie Tangband W3's as a 'proof of concept' thing and may move up to bigger speakers in the future if they do it for me. The trouble is there's a huge number of drivers available, form the cheaper Moth, Fostex etc. to the somewhat more expensive PHY-HP designs. It's so confusing.