My Rega P5 dem

You may or may not know that I've been seriously considering getting a TT lately. After strong recommendations to go down the Rega path from people here and elsewhere I went to my local Rega importer/distributor who also has a shop. Today was for a demo but I'd already checked it out a week or so ago. Audioteam is a really great little place. It's on a residential street and looks just like all the other houses. There's nothing remotely to give it away as a hifi shop. You press the doorbell and are let in. The ground floor is their storage/warehouse and you're led upstairs to where they have their office, demo room and repair workshop. They represent other brands apart from Rega but you quickly sense that it's a bit of a Rega shrine - photos of the Rega factory visit adorn the corridor. Jorge Alves who runs the place, is a vinyl man through and through. He stocks some Rega CDPs aswell but that's it as far as sources other than vinyl go. There's definitely no SACD, DVD-A or anything remotely home cinema about the place. They also stock a lot of LPs, particularly Speakers Corner and Classic Records re-issues (aswell as all the LPs he has in the shop which are not for sale of course).

The afternoon was ostensibly a Rega P5 dem but I was there for nearly 3 hours and we listened to loads of stuff and chatted at length about hifi issues. I'd been a bit worried before that a lot of "subjective" issues would come up and I'd just have to bite my tongue and humour him. How wrong I was. We started by talking about the speakers he had setup for the dem, a pair of Totem Mani-2 standmounts. He's a Totem dealer and that was the closest thing he had to my Dynaudios (they use Dynaudio drivers for a start). He said: "you know, people go on about source first and expensive cables and stuff but really, 90% of the sound of a system is down to the speakers and how they interact with the room. Then you need an amp that's capable of driving the speakers properly and then you can worry about the source. As for cables, just use any good quality stuff, they don't make any significant difference".

I told him he was preaching to the converted but he went on: "It really annoys me all these megabucks cables that people sell. Electrically some of them are so poor they have significant HF rolloff. Dealers sell them because they make huge profits on them and the customer just swallows it all hook line and sinker. Mains cables are the worst offenders, they really are having a laugh with those but incredibly, people still buy them".

Then he talked for a while about TT design and hifi equipment design in general and he said: "Good hifi is first and foremost designed to extremely tight objective criteria. Take a TT, it's a precision mechanical machine that has to be built to extremely tight tolerances. You can't make a decent TT by ear. The only bit where I reckon tuning by ear is useful is in the final tweaking of speaker cabinets and crossovers, provided you've got the basics right".

I asked him about what he thinks of the Rega TT PSU upgrade for the P5 (standard on the P7). He said: "well, I can't tell you because I haven't evaluated it properly yet. Sure, I've played around with it a bit and on that basis I don't think it makes a worthwhile difference but I haven't evaluated it properly. To do that I'll have to spend one Sunday with two identically setup P5s, one with the PSU and one without and then do some extended blind A/B listening tests to see what, if any, differences there really are". When I've done that I can tell you whether it's worth spending money on or whether you'd be better off upgrading your cart or just buying more music.

As you may have guessed, I LIKE this guy .

Anyway, about the dem. Well, we spent most of the afternoon listening to a P5 (with stock RB700 arm), Dynavector 20XH (high output MC) and Dynavector P-75 phono stage. In his opinion this was the best value for money P5 combo he'd yet come across and claimed it came astonishingly close to his "reference" setup: Clearaudio Reference, parallel tracker, Dyna Te Kaitora Rua, Dyna PHA200 step up, Dyna P-75 stage which costs many times more. I was going to find out just how close later. The rest of the system was a VTL TL-7.5 pre, various VTL valve monoblocs (can't remember which) bi-amping the aforementioned Totem Mani-2 speakers. Incidentally, he's something of an expert on the Dyna P-75 phono stage. He has an A4 folder of jumper diagrams for it where he's tried every sensible combination of gain and loading for each of the carts he stocks and detailed the pros and cons of each setup. For the DV-20XH he said he's using a setup that's technically less than ideal but it just sounds so much better (sorry, can't remember the details).

Well, I was blown away by this system. I'd heard that the Rega TTs were "excellent musically, no doubt, but rather dry and insipid". Forget it. This system had all the scale and depth you could want. "dry" couldn't be further from the truth. He has his own theories about why people make those kinds of comments about Regas: "well, they don't advertise do they so the mags and reviewers don't get any money from them so it's not surprising they usually don't get as good a reception as the Michells etc of this world, except in the case of the P9 which is so good no one can deny it". We listened to a whole range of music from Miles Davis and Coltrane through Bob Dylan and onto Offenbach and Holst and many others. On the recording of Holst's "The Planets" he had there was some seriously trouser flapping bass from the organ parts in Uranus and Saturn. Those Totem Mani-2 speakers were deeply impressive. I didn't know much about them but I checked their specs, they go down to 29Hz -3dB . Amazing for a cabinet only slightly larger than my Dyns. They have two mid/bass drivers in a push/pull configuration, apparently similar to what Linn did with their Isobariks which allows a much deeper bass extension for a given cabinet volume. At €4500 they're not cheap either, esp. for a standmounter but I was impressed enough that I'll try and dem a pair at home once I've got the TT purchase out of the way.

Towards the end of the afternoon we spun a few tracks on the Clearaudio Reference setup he had just for comparison. OK, there was a touch more detail, the soundstage was a bit wider and deeper and a bit more clearly defined but it was a long way from being a night and day difference. I asked him about the P7 and he said: "to be honest, it's not really worth it. If you want to spend more money, spend it on a better cart or more music, unless you want to go all the way to a P9. The P5 really is a giant killer. Way better than the P25 and not that far off the P9 or any absolute top of the range TT setup you care to mention."

So, there it is. P5 + DV-20XH + Dyna P-75 + Rega wall shelf and I'll be sorted. Will probably do the deal end of Jan or early Feb. Quite looking forward to it now .

Michael.

 

Great write up Michael! Lots of useful info there.

I'm intrigued by your dealer's comments regarding the P5 vs P7 as these are almost the exact opposite of my dealer's views! I remember enquiring about the P5 and was told that it wasn't really an improvement on the P25, rather it was just different. In their view, the P7 is the really exciting product in the range and it's supposed to be considerably better than the P5. Still, I never heard the P5 and can just relay what I was told. Having had a P3, I'm sure that the P5 must be an amazing bit of kit... and knowing Rega it probably represents a bargain at its price point - so don't let these comments put you off! After all, it's all about listening to what your ears tell you.

Good luck with the new TT and welcome to the world of vinyl

Lefty

 

Nice thoughts that I would agrre with regarding Rega,except the last thoughts of the P5 being miles better than the P25 and nearly as good as the P9...oh well.There seems a good synergy of Rega with Totem speakers.The Dynavector cart is what I have on my P25,with a similar phono stage in the sonneteer sedly,and it does as you say sound superb,though I do think it is lean,and the bass is missing scale,but then my speakers don't cost as much.

I'm going to add the Heed audio power supply to mine soon as I've read nothing but praise for the unit,it's a very reasonable 330 €uros.Dexter on PFM felt it elevated the P25 as very close to the P7,so should be intresting.good luck with the Rega/Dynavectors...good call.

 

Hi Michael,

Really enjoyed your post, sounds like you had a great day!

I've been a very happy Rega owner (Planar 3) for over 20 years. When I moved to Belgium last year, I needed to find a solution so that my deck could run on 220V current. I fitted the recent Rega motor upgrade kit which also brought my TT up to P3 spec. It was a tremendous improvement.

About the same time, I discovered the wacky world of Hi-Fi forums (which included the recently-departed Rega Forum) and began to read about all the upgrade possibilities for Rega turntables. First, I got a Michell TecnoArm, which is a comprehensive redesign of the Rega RB-250. This was another major step forward, greater authority and refinement.

Then I bought a Heed Audio Orbit 2 offboard PSU which added rock-solid speed stability, tighter bass, and a wider soundstage for an altogether more musical experience.

I was able to demo my modded Planar 3 against the new P5 and found that they were roughly equivalent, so I was quite pleased indeed. I posted my findings on PFM and Audio Asylum and to my great surprise got numerous replies discussing the engineering limitations of the lower to mid-end Rega decks. Undaunted, I pressed forward, determined to take my Planar 3 as far as I could.

But those other viewpoints began to haunt me. After all, I had no point of reference other than Rega. So when I found myself seriously contemplating laying out $200+ for a steel sub-platter with a ruby bearing and some magic long-strand molecule oil among other things (acrylic platter, Thorens disc stabilizer, outer-platter stabilizer ring, ad infinitum), I decided to step back and check out other options for not much more money than more tweaks/upgrades.

After spending considerable time with both a Rega P25 and new P7, I settled on a 2nd-hand Roksan Xerxes, which I found to be nothing short of a revelation, and, yes, great as it is, the Rega P7 sounded dry by comparison. You can read about my recent experiences here:

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9002

Now that I've heard the Xerxes sound, I'm curious to hear the latest version. Roksan are releasing a Xerxes 20, with an additional grounded plinth; I'm going to demo one next month. Don't get me wrong, the Rega line is truly excellent and provides continued refinement as one moves up through it. But I'd strongly suggest that you also give the Roksan a spin before you pull the trigger on that P5.

Cheers, Dex

 

Thanks for the comments guys.

The reviews seem to say that too but my dealer was saying that the P5 is flying off the shelves and the P7 is not doing great. His clients are either sticking with the P5 or going straight for a P9. His view is that , for a given amount of money you can get better results with a P5 and a good cart than a P7 and a less expensive cart. AFAIK the only differences between the two are that the TT PSU is standard and of course the P7 has that ceramic "frilly skirt" platter. TBH that's another thing that would put me off the P7 which is that people have commented that the 'weights' on the P7 platter (the frilly skirt bit ) can cause a sort of strobe effect which is very off putting.

Dexter (nice avatar btw ) - I know I really should listen to some other options but I'm not really sure if I can be arsed tbh. It will be very difficult to make a valid comparison in a completely different system anyway. Also, one of the strong plus points for Regas for me is that nice acrylic cover to keep my cats (and attendant fur and fluff) off it!

If I really get well into vinyl I can always upgrade to a P9 further down the line.

Michael.

 

Hey Michael,

That P7 platter is really hypnotic; I wouldn't recommend driving shortly after a listening session with one.

Don't let your dealer undersell the TT/PSU. Quartz-locked speed control takes synchronous motors to another level entirely as frequency in mains supplies fluctuate noticeably and extra clean power reserves are a real boon in negotiating the demands of transients. This is the main reason that the P25 with Heed Orbit ran the P7 so very close in my side-by-side demo.

Be certain to demo the P5 with the PSU and you'll notice the difference immediately, no blind-test necessary. Bring some of your favorite records. First listen with the PSU switched-in. Then switch it out and listen again. Where did all the fun go? It really should be that obvious and you'll hear fundamental differences that merely upgrading cartridges cannot compensate for.

Of course, you can always add the PSU later (and Heed are introducing a new 24V PSU that I'm gonna try with the Xerxes; it will also be compatible with the P5 and will likely be somewhat less expensive), but you're gonna want one eventually.

BTW, the Xerxes has a lovely acrylic cover as well. I have 2 cats and 2 toddlers so it's kind of a necessity.

I totally understand your hesitancy to go further into demoing other decks, but in case you have a change of heart, here's the Roksan contact in Portugal:

Del Audio
Largo Do Casal Vistoso
Lote 3B
1900 Lisboa
Tel: + 35 121843 6410
Fax: + 35 121843 6419
E-mail: [email protected]
Contact: D. Yanez or Juan Simoer

Perhaps they'll allow you a home demo, especially if you hip them to ZG.

I think you'd be genuinely astonished by the differences between a Xerxes and the P5 (or P7 for that matter)! Good luck!

Best, Dex

 

Very useful!

Michael,

Thanks for a great review of your P5 dem. I have owned a Rega Planar 3 from new (since modded with a P3 motor upgrade and a Super Elys MM cart) and have been contemplating a TT upgrade for a while. As a matter of fact Hifi World has sung the praises of both the P5 and the P7 but I did wonder whether the P5 was sufficiently better than the Planar 3 to be a worthwhile upgrade.

However, perhaps its like your dealer says - the combination of cartridge and phono stage used can make a huge difference and I agree, the P7's 'frilly skirt' doesn't appeal much to me either!

Interesting that you mention Totem speakers. At the Heathrow show this year in the Totem room they were using a P7 as the source so it looks like your dealer isn't the only person that thinks Rega and Totem go well together! BTW if you want some more background info on the Mani-2 there's a guy called Geoff P on the Naim Forum that uses them - might be worth checking out for some 'real world' experience. (Apologies if the reference to someone on another Forum is inappropriate.)

Anyway good luck with your new kit and I look forward to reading about your experiences with it when you've got it all set up and cookin'!

Regards,

JonR

 

I went from a Planer 3,to the P25,wonderd if it was going to be worth it,never really got on with the planer 3,in just a few minutes I could easily hear how much clearer and better the P25 made my records sound,add a good phono stage and cart and it really is good.

 

Dexter - as I said, my dealer hasn't written off the TT/PSU yet. He says he's actually got all his P5 customers just waiting for him to tell them whether it's worth it! OTOH, it's not expensive so and it's probably worth going for anyway. I think I'll end up with one sooner or later.

JonR - no probs about mentioning other forums. I'm a member on the Naim forum but have hardly ever posted. I might give Geoff P a PM to see what he thinks of them. I might actually start a thread about them here too....

Looks like my DAC64 will be sold this weekend (hopefully) so that should pretty much pay for the TT setup

Michael.

 

So Mike, is the rega a nos beater?

 

Could be Tony, but I've yet to try it at home. Anyway, it's vinyl vs digital, chalk and cheese and all that so I'm not really fussed

 

It's a shame you don't have a proper Linn dealer to go to. I think you're almost ready....

But the Rega will do the job adequately, just be sure not to spend too much on a cartridge the turntable cannot fully exploit.

Paul

 

Good move. I second the comments about improved PSUs, IME they can make a surprising difference, but I reckon the main thing at this stage is to get hold of as much second hand vinyl as possible.

I haven't seen a P5 in the flesh yet, much less heard one, but I'd be amazed if it wasn't a good choice.

-- Ian

 

Paul - there is a Linn dealer in Lisbon (Transom) but they wouldn't know a TT if it hit them in the face. Strictly an AV plus a bit of CD kind of place . They even have a special Linn room but it's just a "lifetsyle" hifi kind of thing. A shame that Linn have stooped to that level really, along with having a "showroom" in Harrods and kitting out the Aston Martin DB9. And, whatever you say about an LP12 it sure as hell isn't worth it's cost new - they are having a laugh! s/h it's undoubtedly a good buy though.

Ian, as luck would have it I stumbled across a vinyl store in Lisbon (new and s/h) that does exclusively jazz records

Michael.

 

I'm not quite certain that "ready" is the operative word here, Paul, since the Rega dealer has told Michael everything he had wanted to hear.

"Adequate", however, is indeed spot-on as the Regas deliver adequacy in spades. :SLEEP: Having extensively listened to their entire line save for the P9, I heard a myriad of refined variations on the same theme, but I hadn't known "excitement" until I heard the Xerxes (and, yes, the LP12 as well but I found it too bass-boomy, expensive and fiddly).

Michael- When you say you can't be arsed to demo other decks, could it be because you're so gamely fending off the hostiles over on PFM? Undoubtedly judicious speaker partnering and the inevitable acrylic platter down the road will more than compensate for not listening to any other turntable options now.

I don't mean to spoil the party here, but I lived quite happily with "adequate" for many years until I recently discovered "exceptional", with which I'm planning to co-exist for the next 20 years. And while I'm not about to spout source-first dogma, we can't find true satisfaction in theories, only in listening.

Cheers, Dex

 

Michael,

Thanks for the P5 review. Can't understand any of the P5 criticisms myself. I recently helped a friend by a new system, and she lept at the P5. It was the quickest decision in the whole system buying process and represented the first bit of her new system.

I've not been arsed to do a face off between her Rega and my LP12 (may get to it one day...) but reckon I could live happily with the Rega. For the price new, Its got to be hard to better (especially if you want something cat proof).

Stuart.

 

BTW Michael - was the P75 used in current gain mode? Curious as my (limited) understanding is that for current gain to be effective, you need to use a low output cart? Still haven't heard the P75, might spring for one in the new year.

 

The Rega is a fine deck, and will do very well for quite a while. It will also take a better much cartridge, assuming it is the right *kind* of cartridge.
As it happens, I also think there is better out there, and could bore you to death by going on about the natural superiority of Nottingham ;-)
My advice to Michael is to ignore the advice on other decks, go for the Rega/Dyna combo and hit that record shop HARD!
Found a really clean OP of Hot Buttered Soul for 4 quid earlier, and a really nice Sony pressing of Jack Jones for a couple of quid. This is what vinyl is all about.

 

Dexter - I really liked the sound of the P5/Dyna combo and I could more than live with it. I've found a dealer who not only shares my views on many things hifi related but has extensive experience with Regas and other TTs, esp. Clearaudio. As I said I did compare the P5 combo with the $$$ Clearaudio Reference setup in the same system and the difference wasn't night and day. The P5 had "excitement" in spades. I can't really see what my decision has to do with my sparring on PFM unless you mean that as a non-believer in source first I don't think the source is that critical. Even if speakers do give you 90% of the system, you've still got to find the remaining 10% from somewhere .

Basically, I've heard something I like a lot that meets my budget and other criteria (not fiddly to setup and has an acrylic lid), and it's from a dealer I got on well with so I don't really see the point in auditioning other options at this point. The only Roksan I could afford would be the new Radius, a new Xerces being well out of my price range. In any case, I doubt that a Roksan demo would be easy here. The contact you listed above I know well. Delaudio are an importer/distributer of many hifi brands but they don't have a shop. As is common in Portugal, distributors have many brands in their portfolio but only really care about a handful. There probably isn't a new Roksan in the country and they'd have to import one for me to demo.

I respect that you think your Xerxes murders the P5 but I imagine there are just as many views to the contrary .

Stuart - I don't know if the P75 was used in current gain mode, sorry.

Michael.

 

Fair enough, Michael. Indeed, we're not all on the same path here; I was just trying to share mine. I don't consider myself a source-first guy or anything else for that matter, my only philosophy is that the truth lies in the listening, everything else is just forum-fodder. But if we really desire to be truly objectivist about turntables, then we're back to the '70s again, debating "wow & flutter" and "rumble" figures. I do believe, however, that turntables, like loudspeakers, are, first and foremost, musical instruments, and can only be appreciated as such.

I sense that your experience in comparing the P5 to the mucho-moolah Clearaudio unfortunately speaks volumes more about the Clearaudio than it does in favor of the Rega, but it does make for a lovely anecdote.

Shame about the demo situation down Portugal way, but I'm sure you'll get many years of pleasure from that P5. I'll look forward to reading your continuing impressions!

Best, Dex