new living voice prototype horns

[angeloitacare]

abs x mdf

i have had here bouth horns : the Orpheans, ( which i sold ) and my own ones, made with MDF layers. At a certain volume, the Orpheans ABS do resonate, and its not a littlebit : it's quit a lot. While the MDF's do not, even at higher volume. However, it's difficult to say at what degree the horns do add their own coloration. To find this out, i would need to have the same drivers at the horns, and make direct comparisons.

what i can say regarding the drivers : the Radians that i have, use a 4" aluminium diaphragm ( same size as the TAD 4001 's ). the BMS uses a ring diaphragm, with 30% less surface. The result is the Radians go clearly lower, are more warm and fullbodied. I personally enjoy it's sound quit a lot more. tone and dinamic contrast is better, also the contrast of the single instruments. the bms sound's thin compared to. The Radians adds some coloration. However , i think this is because i cross it too low , at the moment at 300hz, since my bass goes only to 300hz/24db with the plate amp. ideal will be cross at 800hz 6db. In my next system i will accomplish this, and i am shure the Radian will sound much better.

I am wondering the Radians how they would behave compared with the TAD's. Many say, the TAD's with Radian diaphragm sound better.

Angelo

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12312992@N07/page1/

 

[anubisgrau]

angelo, this above is a bit strange because i believe that the BMS driver in oris swing is crossed at 270hz (or 300hz not sure at the moment). that's already spectaculary low and it was a subject of various hypothesis on the net is it wise to use a single (dual concentric) driver in a single horn for such a wide range.
was your horn ready made, or DIY?

 

[Gerner]

i have had here bouth horns : the Orpheans, ( which i sold ) and my own ones, made with MDF layers. At a certain volume, the Orpheans ABS do resonate, and its not a littlebit : it's quit a lot. While the MDF's do not, even at higher volume. However, it's difficult to say at what degree the horns do add their own coloration. To find this out, i would need to have the same drivers at the horns, and make direct comparisons.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/12312992@N07/page1/

Angelo

You wrote:

what i can say regarding the drivers : the Radians that i have, use a 4" aluminium diaphragm ( same size as the TAD 4001 's ). the BMS uses a ring diaphragm, with 30% less surface. The result is the Radians go clearly lower, are more warm and fullbodied.

The BMS truth is:

Voice coil high-range 1,75" (44,4 mm)
Voice coil mid-range 3,5 " (90 mm)
That makes the BMS diaphragme 19% smaller.
It has a +- 0,8 mm P-P.

And your Radians? +-0,1 mm?

Are you so sure that Orpheans applied to a Swing construction is vibrating? In the design I saw you used them, for sure they would.
I will consult a doctor to ask him if my fingertips are numb as here are NO vibrations except when the Swings deliver it's peak 144db/w/m. Then everything vibrates to an extend that it start to bother the seismic laboratory here.

From where do you have this scientific observance? From you thoughts?

Fine you like your own horns. Good.

BTW you newer heard the Orpheans latest version...so apples and pears here.


Cheers
Gerner

 

[angeloitacare]

hello Gordan

i make the MDF horns by myself. In fact, the problem, as i have said already in other threads, is the treble of the Orpheans. It beams . Now i use above 8khz a jbl 2405 slot. it has a excellent dispertion, so beaming is not a issue anymore. What bothers me is the slot is a littlebit too sharp. I will sell it again. I have just ordered a tweeter, which i used for over 10 years, and blowed : the Coral h100. I have asked recently a guy from denmark, which had a stock of coral speakers, and from time to time sells one or another pair at ebay. He has also Goto's. Since he advertised recently a Fostex t945a, i asked him, which tweeter he liked more, the fostex or the Corals. he said the Coral beats the Fostex range, and can be compared to Goto performance. Unfortunately it's not produced anymore, but from time to time they appear on ebay. They are not cheap, they go around 500 euros a pair. Still cheaper than a Fostex T500a mkII. In the midrange the Orpheans are good, but in my opinion the Radian 950pb with my MDF horns are more pleasant to listen to. I don't think a 2" compression driver should be crossed lower than 500, 600hz. 300 hz is too low.
Soon i receive measuring instruments. Sad i don't have the Orpheans here anymore, otherwise i could measure them. But i really doubt it goes down to 270hz flat. ( Bert said it would go even deeper, 220hz ). 400hz is probably more realistic.

For me no doubt, there are better solutions than the Orpheans.

 

[angeloitacare]

hello Gerner

shure, i believe you the way the orpheans are fixed in your swings, they do not vibrate. However, i do not think this is the key element. the most important is the driver used, the kind of horn, ( i will soon also experiment with shorter wave guides, they for shure will deliver a more natural sound ) and how. In final it's also a quest of taste. You like the Swings , how they sound, and that is what imports. I found a other solution, which pleases me more now. Since we talk about subjective things, certainly your system, mine , and many others do fine, since they deliver the emotional high and pleasure, we are looking for.

 

[Gerner]

hello Gordan

i make the MDF horns by myself. In fact, the problem, as i have said already in other threads, is the treble of the Orpheans. It beams . Now i use above 8khz a jbl 2405 slot. it has a excellent dispertion, so beaming is not a issue anymore. What bothers me is the slot is a littlebit too sharp. I will sell it again. I have just ordered a tweeter, which i used for over 10 years, and blowed : the Coral h100. I have asked recently a guy from denmark, which had a stock of coral speakers, and from time to time sells one or another pair at ebay. He has also Goto's. Since he advertised recently a Fostex t945a, i asked him, which tweeter he liked more, the fostex or the Corals. he said the Coral beats the Fostex range, and can be compared to Goto performance. Unfortunately it's not produced anymore, but from time to time they appear on ebay. They are not cheap, they go around 500 euros a pair. Still cheaper than a Fostex T500a mkII. In the midrange the Orpheans are good, but in my opinion the Radian 950pb with my MDF horns are more pleasant to listen to. I don't think a 2" compression driver should be crossed lower than 500, 600hz. 300 hz is too low.
Soon i receive measuring instruments. Sad i don't have the Orpheans here anymore, otherwise i could measure them. But i really doubt it goes down to 270hz flat. ( Bert said it would go even deeper, 220hz ). 400hz is probably more realistic.

For me no doubt, there are better solutions than the Orpheans.

Hell here it goes again Angelo.

Why are you commenting on the Orpheans like you do? Not able to go down to 270 Hz?

BMS: Frequency range 200 - 22.000 Hz in an Oris 250 Hz horn.

I have plots here showing how deep they can go and talking BMS drivers, you could as well study their own homepage telling exactly why they can go so low distortionless. It is not a mystery.

I do not mind you didn't like your first versions of them and that you find your choises being better. Not at all. It's fine with me.

Cheers
Gerner

Edit:

Forgot to tell you about "they are beaming" thing.

Now when you get your measuring gear and get that started, then try to see if your horns are not beaming. Just measure on axis and 30 degrees off axis. Do your horns beam now?

Do the same to a dome tweater (any driver) do they beam?

If you are after a non beaming thing, look for an omni-directional horn stacked in minimum 180 cm high line array. Then I think the beaming is gone, if you listen in the nearfield of such an unthinkable creature.

 

[Gerner]

hello Gerner

shure, i believe you the way the orpheans are fixed in your swings, they do not vibrate. However, i do not think this is the key element. the most important is the driver used, and how. In final it's also a quest of taste. You like the Swings , how they sound, and that is what imports. I found a other solution, which pleases me more now. Since we talk about subjective things, certainly your system, mine , and many others do fine, since they deliver the emotional high and pleasure, we are looking for.

Oh much better Angelo...here you are right on spot with things.

You are right.

Cheers Gerner

 

[angeloitacare]

Forgot to tell you about "they are beaming" thing.
Now when you get your measuring gear and get that started, then try to see if your horns are not beaming. Just measure on axis and 30 degrees off axis. Do your horns beam now?

whatever driver you use, stick it in a deep horn as the Orphean, it will always beam in the treble. And this screws the sound very seriously. I would make a try, and use a separate tweeter, than you can compare. I am shure you will agree with me, that your whole sistem will sound better

 

[Gerner]

hi Gerner

i express my subjective listening impressions. I might be wrong. What i can say for shure is, the Radian has more body.



whatever driver you use, stick it in a deep horn as the Orphean, it will always beam in the treble. And this screws the sound very seriously. I would make a try, and use a separate tweeter, than you can compare. I am shure you will agree with me, that your whole sistem will sound better

Ok Angelo

Again when you get your measuring gear...oooops, you have no Orpheans nomore...

But let me tell you at 30 degrees off axis they show a flat amplitude to 20 KHz. Yes still beaming...but flat. Very usefull.

Now you might think how that was applied to a deep horn with a pointsource coaxial driver?

Hmmm.....can you guess?

Roger over and out for today.

Cheers
Gerner

 

[Gerner]

Ok Angelo

Again when you get your measuring gear...oooops, you have no Orpheans nomore...

But let me tell you at 30 degrees off axis they show a flat amplitude to 20 KHz. Yes still beaming...but flat. Very usefull.

Now you might think how that was applied to a deep horn with a pointsource coaxial driver?

Hmmm.....can you guess?

Roger over and out for today.

Cheers
Gerner

Angelo thanks for briefing me deeper into your world and presenting the values you are looking for through our private PM's.

Look guys. All this blabbing about if a BMS very *tweaked* driver running through the most advanced approach to filtering, resulting in all what it has is comming forward and all it's set-backs removed. IS NOT WORTHWHILE TO CONTINUE TO BLABBING ABOUT.

All the theories about it cannot work in a long horn keeping a dispertion pattern satisfying enough for quality sound and listening pleasures....this cannot be proved through either kind of criticism and defends on these pages. THIS HAS TO BE EXPERIENCED. Judged, approved or dismissed.

I would as well have brung forward the same comments from some of you not knowing how they sound if I haven't heard them myself. And I'm not a novice who never heard horns loaded by compression drivers. Oh, yes I did. A lot of them.

Then I can only honestly report that those ones who heard the Orpheans are not among those ones who question their abilities and qualities.

Now over to you *anu* as you are among the people who heard almost everything, and you are the one who choosed to be a happy owner of them packed into a Swing system.

Add all the guys who is filling up BD-Designs orderbook overwhelmingly even they hardly could dig up the bucks they cost.

I think I shall not dig myself more into what make them so good as they are.

Neither should any of you who fears them be concerned. There is IMO no best speaker in the world except the speakers we so carefully married or want to marry.

Merry Christmas to every one who are hit by this seasonal tradition.

Gerner


How can I be clever on what to find in Australia when I have never been there?

 

[TheMooN]

As I mentioned earlier, these are really amazing speakers. After living with an Avantgarde Trio for some 8 years, it is now a real eye-opener experience. Shaking my world really. I can not imagine, that there is anything wrong with them (apart size and look), can not imagine to criticize them for anything. They sound like the recording you are playing. Nothing more, nothing less, but they do it on a very entertaining and funny way where you are not forced to think of the "sound" of the speakers, because you can hear the "sound" of the music and the recording.

Very room friendly speakers, the only thing you need to be careful is the speaker stand. There is a quite big surface on the bottom of the speakers, which touches the top of the stand. If you are listening on a higher volume, the box is vibrating, just a little bit, this vibration "excites " the stand itself. So I do not know at the moment what kind of stand would be ideal: a metal thin stand, like the Mana stands were for the big ATC speakers or a more substantial. heavy real wood, like Yamaha were using for the legendary NS-1000. I think a metal stand would be better but will make an experiment with a wood one as well. I am using it on a top of the 50 cm high Ikea table, but a higher stand seems to be better I think, something like 60 - 65 cm high at least if your room is not higher than 2.6 - 2.9 m. These are marginal questions however, like what kind of tyres you need for your Ferrari Enzo

endust m8ty ~ I am curious , Are you still running the SH50's ? any further reports ?

 

[endust4237]

endust m8ty ~ I am curious , Are you still running the SH50's ? any further reports ?

There will be a report soon. I have quite a few weeks of experience and I am now running not only the SH 50 but the Danley SH 100B as well plus the SH 50 with the TH 112 subwoofers using a DEQX digital crossover. The SH 100Bs are almost brand new, need few more hours to form an opinion, but I can say firmly the SH 100B and the SH 50 are from the same school and my Avantgarde Trios now sold