Paging HenryT - Speakers & Sub

Henry, I've often thought about changing my speakers for small standmounts and a pair of subs but thought that finding space would be difficult until I saw you "My Kit" entry. Putting the speakers ON the subs would solve the space thing but how do you isolate them from each other or is vibration from the subs not an issue. Finally how do you set up the twin subs so that they both have identical outputs - or again is this not really an issue
Cheers
Donut

 

Hi Donut!

IMO, this sort of set-up can work extremely well and best of all appears to offer good value for money, especially if you are not willing or do not have the space for very big floorstander and bigger amps (or even an array of amps). My main motivation for having such a setup was to throw lots of power in at the bottom end to be able to really "drive" the room as my listening room is relatively large and open, and has bass suck out problems below about 40Hz. The other was to tune out or to avoid aggrevating a 50Hz room resonance in the room, the main speaker's response drop off at about 55Hz, and the sub comes in at at 42Hz, such is the ability of the room to really amplify the 40-60Hz range, I really don't need to have flat output in the range.

I'd say that there are a few issues to watch out for if you fancy looking into the mini monitor and 2 subs approach:

1) HEIGHT: The tweeter on the main speakers should be roughly of ear level height when they are perched on top of the subwoofer, or roughly the same height as a pair of floorstanders. Mine are just a smidgen lower than ideal at present, but should be sorted out soon when I get some better isolation to go underneath the subs such as a paving slab. The subwoofer's spiked feel are already sat in spike cups which raise the height off the floor a light, as well as some ceramic floor tiles (no shown in the picture in "My Kit").

2) ISOLATION: Most decent subs will have a farily inert cabinet, so mechanical interference between the two shouldn't be much of an issue, but it's still important to get the two halves isolated. You could try balancing the main speakers on isolation cones or suitable sized granite plinths (and blu-tack). I think you maybe just be able to see from the picture in my "My Kit" page that the mini monitors sit on top of something, which in turn sits on the sub's cabinet - that something is a polished piece of granite which came with my speakers as they were originally designed to work with matching purpose made passive bass units as a floorstanding combo - see picture below.

3) CROSSOVER FREQUENCIES: In a way, this requirement means that this solution might be a better mid price to "lower" high-end solution than it would be for someone on a tight budget. I think those on limited finances would be better served by getting a suitable floorstander, as IMO for this solution to really work the main speakers really neeed to go down fairly low, to say at least 50-60Hz, and then for the sub to take over form there downwards. The more auidible range the main speakers produce the better. Also this puts less of a onus on the sub(s) to produce more highly or tonally distinguishable bass which will help with tonal integration. The subs of course should produce as little of their own tonal character as possible, again something which will necesitate a highish expenditure, and for the money, I think the MJ Acoustic Reference 1 I have does a surpringly good job for the money and matches well the £6k mini monitors they're used with!

Setting the levels on the two subs shouldn't be any more complicated than if you had one. The easiest thing to do is to just make sure you have identical crossover and output level setting on both sides. Mine have indentical settings for both sides. Experimentation is an option of course.

As for whether this solution is really the way to go, I'm convinced it is for me given that I don't wish to get bigger speakers and a bigger amp to provide the muscle to "drive" the big room that is my listening room.

I've been told that I should be able to get at least 80% of the bass I'm able to get from the subs, but by going back to using the mini monitors with their partnering passive bass units, with no associated hardware changes, just a change of cables and isolation. Can't say I'm totally convinced by that, but the challenge is on and I'm sure you'll see some reports coming up within the next few months. Yes, I agree and think that I should be able to get the obvious tune playing stuff to be able to play rock/pop tracks satifactorily, but I have doubts whether the floorstanders will have the inner detail, subtely and grace for acoustic and classical which contains a lot of important ambient and harmonic details below 40Hz, IMHO. Below 40Hz is a real problem in my room as it gets sucked out, hence why I use the power of the subs to bolster those frequencies. Also, I can get the bass ports on the mini monitor's dedicated bass units to chuff on one or two torture tracks I have, so reason to suspect they are not up to the demands of the job.

Others also argue that floorstanders are better for timing integration, but I think for my generally more "round" leanings, I think the sub/mini monitor combination will be more than good enough for my requirements.

The only other consideration of course are the aesthetics. For me, this is a non issue, but for others...

 

Thanks Henry - it looks like this may not be the way to go for me for 3 reasons.
1. Currently mys system is on the "round" side and I could do with a bit more "flatness" - rhythm etc
2. My room is not big (16x20")
3. My budget may not be enough - I was looking at MJ Pro50s at £250 a piece and either second hand AVI NuNeutrons (£250) or new Castle Richmond (£280).
So it looks like I'll need to carry on looking - maybe I need a chat with Timpy
Cheers
Donut

 

Hi Donut,

Fair enough dude!

That's actually about the same size as the main length of my L shaped room.

I think you could find some very nice floorstanders or even *stand mounts* for your given budget that'll out do your Yamahas in the bass and rhythm departments I reckon, if you don't mind me saying so.

Also, depends how fussy you are about PRaT. I notice when it's lacking, but tend to be a lot less fussy than some I know.

 

nice wicker basket henry , fits in well with a 30 grand system
(or whatever it cost )

 

"I think you could find some very nice floorstanders or even *stand mounts* for your given budget that'll out do your Yamahas in the bass and rhythm departments I reckon, if you don't mind me saying so. "

I agree Henry - the Yamahas are nice and transparent but are clearly the "weakest link". I'm considering the following:-
Castle Pembroke
B & W CM2
B & W CDM 1NT (bit of a stretch though)
The above I can audition easily, anything else gets difficult eg
Dynaudio Audience 52, Quad 12L, KEF Q3

I'm not looking for a hugh amount of PRaT but just want a little more than I currently have. I did manage to improve things a bit by changing interconnects to CableTalk Monitor3 with Bullets but this was at the expense of tranparency.

Cheers
Donut

 

Cheers Kermit! They're my take on bass traps! Didn't cost too much, and as I don't have the facilities or means to easily transport DIY materials back on a whim, they fitted the bill.

Yep, the you're near enough on the button with the system cost. I'm Mr Cheap these days, well nearly, cheap but not much BIY going on.

 

i didn,t notice the second one in the picci . on second look , i can just see it .
do they make much difference? and do you have anything absorbant in them ?(please don,t say your laundry )

 

Kermit,

Yes, they do make a difference... and you're fairly close with the laundry comment , I've got a (clean) duvet stuffed into each one.

BTW, I tried the subs with and without (1Kva) Trichords this weekend and despite the recent bass enhancement mods still prefer to use them WITH. Bass is sloppy and all over the place without, and so much tighter and integrated with the main speakers with.