Pass Labs X250 (V8 American Grunt?)

Hi folks.

A mate of mine has a Pass Labs X250, which is rather enormous but kinda cool looking nonetheless. Sounds pretty decent too. As I know nothing about them, I was wondering how it stacks up against more familiar UK amps. Really out of morbid curiosity rather than any wish to buy one, though...

John

PS. If I persuaded him to lug it down to my house (all 100+ lbs of it. The amp, that is, not the house (which weighs somewhat more)) would it sound better than my Minimax power amp (with its resplendent eight watts and not a sausage more) into my moderately large speakers? Thinking Corvette versus Caterham Superlite, or something. Again, not something I was planning to do, but he is vaguely thinking of flogging it on, and I know the Pass is v.expensive to buy, and he'd probably offer it to me for a good price, and I'm a compulsive dabbler but also I am not so sure I want him to go to the hassle of lugging it down (all 100+ lbs of it, etc.) just on a whim. Hypothetically, y'hear?

 

Pass Labs kit has a pretty awesome reputation in the States. Think Levinson, Krell or Rowland. In the UK I guess Chord/ high end Naim/Linn would be about the mark.
I spent many years pretty underwhelmed by US amps, after a particularly shouty dem of an early Krell. I now think they do make some pretty good stuff, and have been very happy with a Proceed AMP5 for the last couple of years

 

I would also say Chord (SPM 1200C or 1200E). I think the Chord is faster than the Pass.

 

Thing is, guys, these are all Big Brute Amps and I'm just wondering if, when the need for Big Brute Power is low (as in my case) if they'd have anything to offer over a modern, competent valve design such as my Minimax. The Minimax gives a whole lot of grip in the bass, but I can't help wondering whether I could get more of that. Really just post-Christmas navel-gazing curiosity, as I said...

 

Nelson Pass is a well-regarded designer, who shares his ideas both on paper (Audio Amateur, for example) and on the Pass Labs website - he's very open about why he does what he does. I have no insight into how different his commercial products are from his DIY contributions. Look at the Pass website to find out what he's about.

My personal experience predates his conversion to the low-power cause, but I built three of his Class-A 40-watt amps (with another Audio Amateur mod, using MOSFET output devices). I liked them, and didn't need the central heating on much.

I suspect that the more recent higher-powered Pass amps are a beefing-up of his quite well-received Aleph series.

 

Good as the Minimax may be,you havent heard real bass grip and power until you've tried something along the lines of a Levinson or Krell(particularly some of the older models such as the Levinson 20.5 or KMA/MDA Krells).

Against that is the sheer size,expense and running costs in terms of power!

 

I've heard the Pass X350, which not only looked good but sounded pretty groovy as well...
So I think the X250 would give just a touch more twack than a Minimax - but depends on the price!

 

Having owned both a Pass X350 and the 600 mono's I can vouch for the quality, beautifully built, great reserves of sweet and open sound, nice balance of tonal quality, great flow and effortless headroom.
Downsides for me, far too big and far too much heat (they idle at .5Kw !!!) not that groovy or that tight in the bass. However a superb amp
Also owned Chord 1200c's and E's, powerful, fast and a lot cooler, just not in the same league, also need to partnered coprrectly else a brash and bright sound can result. Wm (fully refreshed!!)

 

I have a x150 into large proacs and the sound is the best i've heard so far . Perhaps not quite as open as my eslab digital but slighty more rounded ?

 

Interesting. I have demmed the Minimax power up against an ATC 150 integrated (150wpc?) and there was very little difference in bass grip* up to silly in-room volumes, so I suppose it would depend on how much more grip the Levinson or Krell amps offer over the ATC integrated also. That said, there's probably a world of difference between the ATC and a big Pass or Krell, but what would worry me would be simply not needing any of that extra power.

* at the limits the dem favoured the ATC, and it had a smidgeon more depth too. However, the Minimax presented the music in a more musical and delicate manner, with more presence and tonality. In balance, the ATC versus the Minimax was a choice between power and poise.

 

I find the Proceed, which is undoubtedly a big brute of an amp at 75kg, works very well with my Living Voice IBX's. In theory they need little power, but it just seems to make everything effortless

 

John - given you were happy with a nait2, and moved to the MInimax becasue you didn't need the power I rather doubt you'd gain much by going to the SUV end of the spectrum. That's not to say lots of watts can't be fun - but so far on yourmeander through hifi you've come back to 'small and refined' amps every time.

 

If you don't need that "Brute Power", are happy with the valve sound, but still want some solid state grip, I would suggest Lavardin (IS Reference, or even better, IT).

 

Felix, fair point. The other option open to me is to add a second Minimax and bi-amp (in the follow arrangement: Minimax 1: L-HF / R-LF, Minimax 2: R-LF / L-HF, or similar). The big question in my mind isn't that I feel that the amps are underpowered, just that I wonder if I may at some point become aware of limitations in grip and grunt. At the moment the Minimax has astounded and exceeded all reasonable (and many unreasonable) expectations of its power and grip, and I couldn't be happier with it in all other regards, except for this nagging feeling that a little extra power headroom would not be such a bad thing.

Eric, I've come to my current amps by way of a few moderately well regarded pre-power combos, most recently the Naim 52/SC/250. I've read comparisons of the Lavardins against similar Naim setups, and it goes either way. Given my 'on the record' opinion that the Minimax pre-power outperforms the big Naim system for my own listening, I would be wary of going back down solid-state all-through, as I feel that my Minimax pre-amp does things beyond the ken of a 52/SC, for a lot less money. SO perhaps it's something inherent in simply designed, well executed valve designs.

John

 

I know you're saying that in jest, but some might take that at face value so I thought I'd fill you in on my meandering venture through solid state.

2001: DNM 3B Primus/Crimson 640Ds monoblocks (200w), Neat Petite III/Gravitas
A fine sounding, boogie-some system which was great but the 640Ds sacrificed the finer things for a real ballsy sound. Great with rock, a bit lost with the finer aspects of timbre and tonal colour.

2002: Replaced 640Ds with DNM PA3^S (23wpc solid state)
Far more control within my normal listening envelope - also timbre, tonality and timing were vastly improved. Despite the lower power, the overall sound was a league apart from the 640Ds.

2003: Replaced Neat speakers with s/h Audiophysic Virgo mkIII
An opportunistic buy, as I'd always admired the Virgo II, and wanted something with a bit more detail and dynamics than the Neats. Also was easier to drive, and better looking. DNM really excelled into these, though I felt the bass was a little lean, so added my trusty REL Stentor into the mix in early 2004. My PA3^S and the Stentor had a fight (resulting in the DNM blowing something internally which was repaired under warranty) and I started to see how fragile and generally incompatible the DNM amps actually were, and in any case the ergonomics and dual volume pot thing was bugging me, despite the great sound, so I started to play with...

2004: Naim 82/HC/250 into Virgo mkIII
A fine, if unspectacular sound. I'd been very very impressed with the results of a recap on the Nait 2 which we used in a second system, so much so that I thought a bigger Naim setup could rival and perhaps replace the DNM setup, with less risk of losing money if I resold it. Plus I'd get a remote. Oddly enough, despite my tip-top mains, supports and careful setup it didn't even sound as much 'fun' as the Nait 2. More detail, yes, and a bit more grip and dynamic, but duller and a bit boring. This quickly led to me selling-on (no loss) to buy...

2004: Naim 52/SC/250 (into Virgo IIIs)
This was more like it. Finally a system which in most regards bettered both the DNM amps and had the fun of the Nait 2. But, boy, was it expensive, and though I really enjoyed this setup, I still felt that it wasn't 'better enough' to justify the money spent, over the little Nait 2. This was where I left the Naim upgrade ladder: one fateful evening, with a couple of friends and my wife, we did a rather unscientific but effectively blind test of the 52 system against the Nait 2, using both my Opus 21 cdp and an LP12/Armageddon/Aro/Lyra Helikon/Dyna P75 for vinyl. The results were interesting: everyone thought what turned out to be the 52 system sounded noticeably better with cd, but with vinyl, the Nait 2 was the favourite. Crazy, but I trust my ears more than what my head says should be the answer, and my impressions were backed up by those of my wife and friends. SO, it seemed silly to keep £5k sunk in a 52/SC/250 system when a £300 Nait 2 ran it so close for my own listening purposes. So I sold it on, with no loss. It was at this time that I started to really think about why an 18w integrated should be capable of making MUCH more expensive amps look a bit silly. My conclusion, and pardon me if this sounds like a case of deus ex machina, was that into sensitive speakers, there just isn't the need to carry all that muscle (which is either very expensive, or compromises the sound at a price point), and that given optimal mains (I have 4x32A spurs on a dedicated consumer unit), the expensive dedicated power supplies of Naim, etc., may not be so important, leading way to my overall conclusion that a simpler, less powerful amp on great mains into sensitive speakers, fed by top-notch sources, was the best way forward for me. I thus lived with the Nait 2 as the 'inverse mullet' amp quite happily for over a year, and had no wish to change, until I hear...

Today: Eastern Electric Minimax pre-power (8wpc)
A radical departure from the Nait 2, I had read about the Minimax system but had no particular desire to hear it and certainly no plans to buy one. But, there I was, in a dealer, auditioning a replacement deck (the fragile fully-Naimed LP12 and our cats were always an uneasy combination) and I'd bought a Spacedeck HD with Spacearm which outperformed the Linn in every way for my tastes. Whilst I was there, I couldn't help but notice the spectacular sound coming from a little unassuming silver pre-power. Which turned out to be the Minimax. I tried to ignore it, but failed: here was a pre-power which finally bettered the Nait 2 into sensitive speakers, whilst adding everything I'd missed since DNM days (the delicacy and tonal colour). What's more, it was (all-in) less than 1/3 of the cost of my old 52/SC/250 amps, yet sounded far better. To cut a long story short, I borrowed, loved, bought and here we are!

So, that's my journey. I've missed out a few details such as the fact that I borrowed Rogue M150 150wpc valve monoblocks at one point and found them hugely disappointing (in combination with the M99 preamp), and other amps 'just for a shot'.

So, this has been rather longer than I intended, but the point of posting all of that is by way of belated introduction to my quest for the ideal amps. Thing is, I can't speak highly enough of any of these amps (save for the Naim 82/HC - curiously disappointing) but there's a magic in the Minimax I don't want to lose. Nevertheless, I am always open to better offers, and willing to be open-minded about alternatives...

Off for coffee now...

 

John, sadly there is always something better out there, but it's not until you hear it that often you realise.

I use a larger, more efficient loudspeaker than the Avanti, and personally would lose out quite a bit if I was limited to 8 wpc (although for the majority of listening it would be OK). I recently moved from a very highly regarded valve integrated, to a Berning ZH270. The improvement was, to my ears, enormous. I now realise that my previous reference was limited in bass extension and solidity, as well as ultimate resolution and timing. But until I had heard the Berning I was more than happy, and felt it superior to many pre-power combos I had tried before costing up to £10K.

If you heard a Berning in your system, I would wager a not inconsiderable sum, that you would be aware of the limitations of your current set up, and most likely the same could be said for the IT and others. You might however point out that you are losing something in the process.

I like the Minimax gear, it's good value for money. But if I were to play one track through the Berning, with and without the Minimax Pre in circuit, you would soon realise what it is doing to the signal. Then you become dissatisfied and the wretched upgrade path lies before you again! It's a terrible vice!

 

You could be right: there are always better amps (normally at much higher prices). I had a quick surf of the Berning website. Tell me, are you in the UK, how much does a ZH270 cost and other than bass solidity (which, trust me, isn't really a concern for me right now) and where are you (if I were to cheekily invite myself round for a listen )

 

John,

I'm down near London I'm afraid but if you are ever in the area you are welcome to visit.

The Berning offers three qualities that are superior to other amplifiers I have used. Firstly, as mentioned, the bass control and pitch is superb, and the equal of some PWM amplifiers I have tried at home. My room tends to lead to a rather soft and ploddy bass so this helps.

Secondly, there is a total, and I mean total, lack of glare or brightness at any sane level. I would expect this if the treble were rolled off, but it isn't. All the information is there - it just sounds more natural than is the case normally.

Finally, the clarity is superior to any of the amps I have used before (Tact, Moon, McIntosh, AR, Canary, Theta, Bryston, Naim plus more...). The intelligability of lyrics is quite extraordinary IME. This is not the fake transparency that many amps provide, where everything sounds open, airy, and, well, insubstantial. This is, to my ears, more musically important than that.

Add to this the 10K hours valve life, the provision of two inputs, and the ability to "tune" the sound to the room and speaker, and I think it is a very special amplifier indeed. If only it looked like it cost money.