[Review] phonostage comparison

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi and General Audio' started by Lt Cdr Data, Jun 1, 2005.

  1. Lt Cdr Data

    Lt Cdr Data om

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    phonostage comparison

    WEll I have been playing with a few phonostages of late:

    the contenders

    bottlehead seduction mm

    Tom Evans microgroove plus

    dynavector p75

    Ming da tube phonostage

    First of all the evans, well it seems a bit bass light, that was a characteristic of both the iso and iso hr, the latter more clinical.
    The ugroove still has that uncoloured clinicity.

    Perhaps due to the lithos psu, it seems astonishly quiet backgrounds, I am not talking hiss and hum, hiss is very low, hum is non existant.
    Its the vocals on sting and jon anderson, there is a lot of space, and saxophone is best I have heard it.
    bass as rep;orted is a bit light, and its brightly lit in the top, still clinical, in a grey way, due to modern ic's I suspect.
    One very odd thing it does is actually seem to slow the music down, like its running underspeed, its dreamy in this sense, curious!!
    It does some things VERY well, but I am not sure if its to my taste, I could live without it, but it is good. It does some things I really like, like space and soundstage.
    It does bleep a bit on switch off at times, somehitng I hate a lot, I don't know what damage this can do.
    A sugden masterclass Cd made an awful pop on switch off, too, and are not now in my esteem.
    Tom Evans customer service has been criticised a bit over length of time, so maybe black marks here.

    now the dynavector, this one is my own, recently acquired, its small, inside is a very neat pcb, surface mount components which I don't like as I can't understand and draw the circuit out.
    What I can tell is its 2 stage, uses lt1115, very low noise ic, decoupled well, and the final opamp is burr brown opa2227, so quality here. riaa caps are those little red and green plastic wimas, nothing special, but I am not sure riaa caps are that audible. as caps go they are fine.
    psu is strange, dont' understand at all , switch mode, no hope of that.
    It is internally adjustable gain and loading for mm and mc, and a curious phono enhancer, unique to dynavector.
    this automatically matches the impedance of the cartridge coil, perhaps like the 47 labs principle.
    It is said to work best on dv's own cartridges, but its very good on my ortofon mc.
    how does it sound, well its bright up top, a bit veiled and 2d, it doesn't project like the seduction, or have the same soundstage, something I really like, I don't like the dv's character at first listen.
    But after a while you get used to it, and it makes the seduction sound typically valvey, the sound of the bhead is rich, bloomy bass, more 3d incredibly so, great soundstage.
    the dv is typically solid state, bass and timing are great , superb in fact and you get used to its ss signature, soon appreciating its accuracy, its very uncoloured, I am getting to really appreciate it, it doesn't sound 'nice' but it tells the truth. Switchoff is quiet.

    Finally the ming da, this is a 2 valve with active feedback.
    its not brill, strange for ming da, build is lovely, but sounds a bit restrained and thin, it pops when you switch from mm to mc and I tried some capacitors to alleviate this which didn't.
    It also is noisy when the vol is turned right up, a test I like to do to hear the phonostages self noise, I can tolerate hiss, but not valve hum and this fella picks up hum a bit.
    So not ming da's best product.

    I like the bottlehead, its inimitable, shame I am going off valves, it does exactly the things I like, big projection, live feel
    the evans is good too, different, more liquid than the dv which is dry and has great attack, largely I suspect due to the power supply. similar traits to a chord dac 64 which also has an smps.

    any owners of evans or dynavector agree with what I have found? interested to hear
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2005
    Lt Cdr Data, Jun 1, 2005
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  2. Lt Cdr Data

    penance Arrogant Cock

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    Interesting to see your views on the P75, as i have been reccomended to try one.

    I find the MG+ a bit tiring to listen to, way to bright and un-involving for me.
    Its strengths are timing, tight bass and transparency. TBH it seems to have it all there but somehow manages to put it across in a completely un-musical fasion (IMO).

    I think i will be trying a Trichord Diablo next, and possibly a Slee Era Gold.
     
    penance, Jun 1, 2005
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  3. Lt Cdr Data

    Lt Cdr Data om

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    slee is on my must try list, too, diablo a bit pricy for me atm. its probably much the same as the mg+
    I suspect you would find the p75 bright, its more lit than the evans in a different way.
    its soudning better into a valve power amp, I wonder if its snergy/partnering sensitive? it doens't like my a400 sounding very flat into it.
     
    Lt Cdr Data, Jun 1, 2005
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  4. Lt Cdr Data

    penance Arrogant Cock

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    TBH i doubt very much that it is as bland as the mg+, tho most reviews seem to rate the MG+, so may a synergy thing.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2005
    penance, Jun 1, 2005
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  5. Lt Cdr Data

    blakeaudio

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    have you ever compared the micro with the groove?
     
    blakeaudio, Jun 1, 2005
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  6. Lt Cdr Data

    penance Arrogant Cock

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    No, not had an oppertunity to.
     
    penance, Jun 1, 2005
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  7. Lt Cdr Data

    TonyL Club Krautrock Plinque

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    I thought the P75 had loading dip switches and various other things that should enable it to be tweaked to taste. Brightness / dullness is mainly a loading thing.

    I recently went from a bog standard Microgroove to a Dynavector P100 (which has no switches to play with) and found the balance quite different, the DV being far more laid back / warmer, to the extent I actually moved the speakers forward a bit to balance things out. Nice stage though, once I'd rebalanced the system a bit it was obviously better than the TE.

    Tony.
     
    TonyL, Jun 1, 2005
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  8. Lt Cdr Data

    Zylog

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    <<Finally the ming da, this is a 2 valve with active feedback>>

    It may interest you to know that the Icon version of the ming da will soon be available, I will be trying one to go with my MB25/LA3. Will let you know what I think.
     
    Zylog, Jun 2, 2005
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  9. Lt Cdr Data

    ReJoyce ... Jason Hector that is.

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    p75

    As Tony said it is definitely worth playing around a little more with the load settings to get a best match to the cartridge. If you are using a MC with a low enough output impedance then the phono-enhance mode is excellent.

    The Era Gold is also superb but is only MM and the Elevator (which I haven't tried) is another £500.


    cheers

    Jason
     
    ReJoyce, Jun 2, 2005
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  10. Lt Cdr Data

    darrylfunk

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    hi guys

    i like the dynavector stages they are nice products just like the carts.
    has anyone tried the sonneteer sedley i am getting great results in my system with a denon dl110 on michell tecnoarm a and on the dynavector karat.
    by the way i have an unused new old stock boxed 19a dynavector cart if anyone wants to make me an offer.
    the red version of the karat shaped carts low output coil.
     
    darrylfunk, Jun 2, 2005
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  11. Lt Cdr Data

    jonjin

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    Hi,

    Interesting posts. There is definitely a lack of phono stage show-down reviews considering how much kit there is out there now.

    I previously used a Lehmann Black Cube SE + PWX power supply. In my system, it sounded quite clinical and staging was good side-to-side but did not project front-to-back. The good thing about it though is it's versatality with easily switchable MC/MM modes and impedence settings.

    I then changed (wouldn't say upgrade as it costs about the same) to an EAR MM. Didn't manage to get the MC version so cannot comment. This livened up the sound, made it more alive and realistic but best of all the soundstage just expanded. It really fills the room with music. After listening for a few hours, I could say it's tonality/coloration was the opposite of the Black Cube. The midrange was more pronounced and warm. Upper bass was fuller. So not surprising changes really, considering I've moved from SS to valves.

    My only problem now is trying to figure out how to get it to accept MC cartridges. The MM can be retrospectively fitted with inbuilt transformers to take it up to MC status but some people say it is not as good. Outboard MC step-up transformers can be had but can be quite expensive including EAR's own MC3 which retail for £815. Currently I am looking at the one offered by BentAudio, which is based on the S&B transformers.

    Ta.

    JJ
     
    jonjin, Jun 2, 2005
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  12. Lt Cdr Data

    bottleneck talks a load of rubbish

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    Jon, have you tried some decent high output MC's into the MM stage of the EAR?
     
    bottleneck, Jun 2, 2005
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  13. Lt Cdr Data

    Paul L vinyl and valves mostly

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    I also tried a few phonos over time but not back to back. When I moved away from my all-Linn system except my LP12 I compared a Sonneteer Sedley to my Linnto. I slightly preferred the Sedley feeling it to be more open and simply revealing more and much better value. I took the plunge but had tremendous problems with spikes going through my system, not pops, heart-attack inducing spikes.

    I tried a Lehmann Black Cube SE but found it, well, bland to be honest. Okay but nothing special. I bought an ISO(HR)/Hera and whilst I thought it two-dimensional in too many ways, a bit bright and basically unsubtle it tied me over for a while. I moved from this to a basic Microgroove which to me exhibited the same traits but it seemed to reveal a lot of detail. All except that first Linnto/Sedley comparison were with Spacedeck/Spacearm and Ortofon Rohmann.

    I then got to try a Benz Lukaschek PP1(T9) for a few days expecting it to blow me away. It seemed to have more finesse than the MG (not that hard really) but it did not take me into the music further or capture my attention. Again I found it rather bland. Most recently I had an EAR 834P Deluxe at home against a Clearaudio Balance. I felt both were class acts and a step up from all the others in terms of subtleties, nuances, soundstage and making sense of the music but both quite different. I was torn between the two but the opportunity to hear what a better power cable and separate step-ups could do with an 834P sent me down that route. this phase was with a benz Glider L2 having replaced the Rohmann.

    Currently I use an 834P Deluxe and MC3 with my Spacedeck, latest SME309, silver-wired throughout and silver phono cables replacing the 'cats-piss' stock VdH D501 phono as I heard one Italian reviewer had called it.

    To me, there are no absolutes and any number of variables from tracking weight, VTA, arm-cables, phono cables and of course our vinyl-analogue kit can all seem to influence our thoughts on phono stages quite a bit.

    Paul
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 2, 2005
    Paul L, Jun 2, 2005
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  14. Lt Cdr Data

    anon_bb Honey Badger

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    Groove

    Hi,

    I have heard iso, iso with lithos, microgroove plus and the groove. I owned the first and last of these. My bro owns the MG+ and my friend has the iso lithos. I recently sold the groove after buying a custom diy design from www.wnaudio.com. At first the wna was ahead on balance but the groove was sharper and quicker (but way too bright) but with some tweaking of the design the WNA is now ahead in all areas. It cost me less than a grand fully built with all the mods and the most advanced psu. If you have diy skills then it will much cheaper or you can go for a more basic version. I think the cheapest version that you can assemble yourself is something like £200 with a wall wart.

    Nick.
     
    anon_bb, Jun 5, 2005
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  15. Lt Cdr Data

    Gromit Buffet-blower

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    Some good posts guys :)

    Having used a Dino for 12 months or so, and discovering that the MC phono input on my Exposure Super XV is in fact significantly better, I'm somewhat reluctant to dip my toe into the the phono stage pool again. This is a bit of a shame as I'm now using my old Sugden A21 with the Exposure acting as phono amp - basically I'm running a connection from 'tape-out' on the Super XV to the A21's aux line input. The Sugden seems to like the NAS turntable and has really come to life compared to what it was doing with the Gyro.

    Thing is, with so much gubbins between the cartridge and the speaker terminals, things ain't what they could be. I'm tempted by the P75 and having heard this phono amp when I bought my Spacedeck, I know it's a tuneful little device. But would an 834P be a better, ableit more expensive bet? The Dino was a sweet-sounding unit but didn't portray a lot of musical enthusiasm.
     
    Gromit, Jun 5, 2005
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  16. Lt Cdr Data

    anon_bb Honey Badger

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    Dino

    The dino and delphini fell along way behind the Groove IMHO - however the new diablo sounds a lot better.
     
    anon_bb, Jun 5, 2005
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  17. Lt Cdr Data

    blakeaudio

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    alot better than the groove, or the dino and delphini?
     
    blakeaudio, Jun 5, 2005
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  18. Lt Cdr Data

    anon_bb Honey Badger

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    Groove

    a lot better than the dino and delphini. Versus the groove I imagine its a matter of taste. The groove sounds quicker and more detailed but its quite bright - the diablo sounds a lot more liquid. The WNA unit I now use combines the best of both worlds.
     
    anon_bb, Jun 5, 2005
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  19. Lt Cdr Data

    blakeaudio

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    so i didn't see any mods for the wna other than the "audiophile" version. is that what you have?
     
    blakeaudio, Jun 5, 2005
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  20. Lt Cdr Data

    anon_bb Honey Badger

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    Wna

    My version has been modified to run with very high speed opamps. The audiophile version uses lt1028/opa627. The latter is compeltely overrated and replacing it with ad825 is a good start. Replacing lt1028 with ad797 or even better the ad811 brings further improvements. The version I am using utilises the lm6181 / lm6171 and has been modified to run with these extremely fast wide bandwidth opamps - they are not stable otherwise and also require a method of dealing with the dc offset. In addition capacitive multipliers have been added to improve the performance of the PSU. Akin in effect to going from a microgroove to a microgroove plus. Further mods are in the pipeline... something akin to lithos to replace the existing psu and also a move away from single monolithic opamps to a composite multiloop approach.
     
    anon_bb, Jun 5, 2005
    #20
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