ribbon hybrids..

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi and General Audio' started by bottleneck, Jul 12, 2004.

  1. bottleneck

    bottleneck talks a load of rubbish

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    Hi all

    Upgradeitus being the terrible bug that it surely is, and before you know it ....WUMMPPHH! You start thinking about speakers!

    I heard a pair of speakers once that I liked better than my precious Avatars..(although it was in a trade show and it was playing opera).. but all the same I'd quite like to go out and listen to speakers that may offer me a presentation I may actually prefer..

    They were 'DALI SKYLINE' at the heathrow show some 3 years ago.

    For those unfamiliar, they are open baffle speakers, with large (12''?) woofers, mid range, and then an enormouse 4 foot ribbon for upper mids and highs.

    I loved the scale, depth, out of box experience and still having that bass you get with big cones moving air.

    Thought I might get out and hear some options.

    If (and its a big IF at this stage) I went for this, I'd have 2,500-3000 to spend on ex-dem or used (not buying new, I refuse!!)...

    Right now Im after thoughts/listening experiences/peoples experiences with reliability/spares of ribbons and to a lesser extent electrostatics etc

    SO! just to recap the shopping list would be..

    1) proper full range, not girly full range.
    2) out of box experience
    3) cones for the bass, not full range electro/ribbon only
    4) preferably reasonably efficient, but not necessarily
    5) pretty room friendly, nice if it can go a foot from a back wall (not essential, just preferable!)

    ??!?!?

    nb
    anyone heard 'Aurum Cantus' biguns?
     
    bottleneck, Jul 12, 2004
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  2. bottleneck

    I-S Good Evening.... Infidel

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    Why not full-range ribbon?

    Apogees rock...
     
    I-S, Jul 12, 2004
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  3. bottleneck

    bottleneck talks a load of rubbish

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    'spose because of my experience with Quad electrostatics.

    I know thats an electrostatic and were talking ribbons, but the quads just didnt move air in the bass (i really like big air in bass!)

    havent heard apogees, a bit scared of the 'what happens if you knacker your ribbon'? scenario... thoughts from apogee people welcome !

    Im going to put a picture of the skyline's up for anyone thats interested....
     
    bottleneck, Jul 12, 2004
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  4. bottleneck

    bottleneck talks a load of rubbish

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    dali skyline 2000

    [​IMG]
     
    bottleneck, Jul 12, 2004
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  5. bottleneck

    I-S Good Evening.... Infidel

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    Apogees have bass. I mean really. Like 21Hz -3dB...
     
    I-S, Jul 12, 2004
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  6. bottleneck

    bottleneck talks a load of rubbish

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    maybe I should investigate? theres loads on audiogon.

    have you heard em isaac? does bass on apogees have that.... what yorkshire people would call 'ecky thump' ?... you know billowing trouser flaring thump aswell as paper figures?

    :D
     
    bottleneck, Jul 12, 2004
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  7. bottleneck

    I-S Good Evening.... Infidel

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    I have heard JC's Duetta Sigs, and they ****ing rocked. The only speaker that I've heard that has impressed me more than meadowlarks...
     
    I-S, Jul 12, 2004
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  8. bottleneck

    bottleneck talks a load of rubbish

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    bottleneck, Jul 12, 2004
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  9. bottleneck

    I-S Good Evening.... Infidel

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    Be aware that many apogees present a very significant amplifier load (the scintilla was as bad as 0.1 ohms!). The Duettas are a relatively benign flat 4 ohm load. I don't know about the divas.
     
    I-S, Jul 12, 2004
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  10. bottleneck

    I-S Good Evening.... Infidel

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    I-S, Jul 12, 2004
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  11. bottleneck

    Robbo

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    you'd probably need to get rid of the valve amps if you want to go the Apogee route.
     
    Robbo, Jul 12, 2004
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  12. bottleneck

    I-S Good Evening.... Infidel

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    This true. Many Krell KSA series power amps can't handle the Scintilla, let alone mere mortal amplifiers. All apogees are very current hungry.
     
    I-S, Jul 12, 2004
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  13. bottleneck

    bottleneck talks a load of rubbish

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    Shouldnt be a problem..

    I could sell the border patrol, avatars, and my old amp - would give me ballpark 3,800.

    I could import a Belcanto for about 1500, leaving 2,300 for the speakers..

    emporium have some apogee duetta sigs in for 1850.
    I dont know how they stack up for apogees though, if theyre as good as the better apogees, as good as martin logans or better, or as good as anything else?! this stuff is kinda hard to get to hear :S
     
    bottleneck, Jul 12, 2004
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  14. bottleneck

    merlin

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    I'd agree, given the space to breathe, Apogees are still quite remarkable (and yes they do bass!) Moving air obvoiusly has a lot to do with the radiating area, so the bigger Apogees excel here.

    The Duetta Sig would be as small as you would want to go I feel, the Caliper and Stage both lacked oomph for me - although the stage worked really well in it's mini grand form which included a monster pair of subs/stands and the Dax crossover.

    The good news is that many are reporting excellent results with some of the new Class D/T digital switching amps which brings down the cost of amplification significantly. The bad news for most is the need for a lot of space to really make them sing.

    Of the others, Magnapans lack the shere power and bravado to my ears, whilst most hybrids offer a somewhat different presentation. Martin Logans are far more laid back to my ears, and require serious investment in amplification to sound their best. If you are lucky, you can pick up a good pair of Duetta Sigs and a s/h Bel Canto Evo 4 for around £3K, but it's a bit of a gamble unless you know what to expect IMO.

    I don't know if JC has sold his pair yet, but if not, get over there and listen ASAP. Me? I'd be tempted to a pair of revamped ESL57's and a pair of Velodyne DD10's or some diy subs :D
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 12, 2004
    merlin, Jul 12, 2004
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  15. bottleneck

    I-S Good Evening.... Infidel

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    JC's were up for £1500 iirc, so worth a go if he still has them!
     
    I-S, Jul 12, 2004
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  16. bottleneck

    Robbo

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    Sounds like you have it all priced out. the Belcanto should work a treat, although be aware that due to the output filtering, the frequency responce of the BC changes with speaker load. Into 1 ohm, it would be rolling off well below 5khz and would be several db down at 10 khz.
     
    Robbo, Jul 12, 2004
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  17. bottleneck

    I-S Good Evening.... Infidel

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    Duettas are 3 ohms apparently, so not so much of an issue. Sometimes with pwm amps provision is made on the circuit board to match to 4 or 8 ohm loads. Otherwise, (reversible) modifications can be made to the output LC filter to match it to any given load.
     
    I-S, Jul 12, 2004
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  18. bottleneck

    Darren

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    Maggies, Maggies, maggies... did I mention Maggies?

    Ribbon tweeter

    planar bass ( the Apogee design was so similar that Magnepan sued them and won)

    No box!

    bi - polar They really drive the room and as for move air... look at the size of the drivers.

    EASY, RESISTIVE 4 Ohm load (unlike the amp busting Apogee Duetta which was only 4 Ohm through the midrange and very reactive)

    The company will support all their old models.

    Neutral, slightly dry, no honking, playing along cabinets...

    But quite big...

    Jim Winey designed the first Magneplanar 'cos he recognised the weakness's of electrostatics ( limited loudness, need to be plugged in etc. etc.)


    Bottleneck.... you'l love 'em.


    Darren
     
    Darren, Jul 12, 2004
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  19. bottleneck

    HenryT

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    Apogees would certainly be the answer for those looking to combine cone bass with panel transparency. I'd be worried about service attention though, although apparently they are quite resiliant to abuse i.e. with the volume control? :) Apart from the amplification considerations they are also quite difficult to place / fussy with placement / listener seating etc.


    If anyone's got the DIY skills though, how this nice Quad ESL stack project:

    http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/quad/hey_you/stacking.html

    :D
     
    HenryT, Jul 12, 2004
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  20. bottleneck

    bottleneck talks a load of rubbish

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    man, this stuff is tempting!

    I really should hold off any hifi kit swapping/upgrading till I finish doing up my house..but its so damn tempting..

    currently considering...

    Apogee Duetta Sigs with Belcanto amp
    Apogee Mini grande (with subs) with belcanto amp split between ribbon/sub or 2 power amps

    even traditional box speakers with a ribbon tweeter..
    Proac future.5's (www.hifi-guy has em for 1900)

    must ...resist...!
     
    bottleneck, Jul 13, 2004
    #20
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