SACD - DVA/A without a Subwoofer

Discussion in 'High End Audio' started by maab, Nov 6, 2003.

  1. maab

    maab Guest

    Hi,

    I'm in the process of purchasing my first multichannel player and I
    was wondering if I have to be concerned about the compatibility among
    players with a system without a subwoofer. Is there a way for me to
    verify that? Is there a list of Hi quality players that I should look
    at?

    Thank you
     
    maab, Nov 6, 2003
    #1
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  2. Many players permit the rerouting of sub/LFE signals to the main
    speakers if you do not have a sub. You should check the specific
    players that interest you to confirm they have this facility. Also,
    your main speakers should be capable of handling the job.

    Kal
     
    Kalman Rubinson, Nov 6, 2003
    #2
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  3. Warning: rerouting the sub will require the main channels to drop in level
    considerably. This mode will seriously degrade SNR.

    SACDs are listenable without sub. They're usually mixed such that without
    the sub the music is still fine, under the presumption that the audiophile
    will have full range speakers anyway.
     
    Bruno Putzeys, Nov 6, 2003
    #3
  4. What is the mechanism you are referring to? If it is in regard to
    power-handling, that is dependant on the particular main channel
    speakers. If it is imposed by the signal processing in the player, it
    is a faulty design. Can you give a specific example?
    Many SACDs have a redundant LFE/sub channel and do not require a
    separate sub. However, (1) many others do and (2) he never said he
    was planning on an SACD player. His reference was to "purchasing my
    first multichannel player" which could mean a DVD-A player or, even,
    an ordinary DVD player with DD and DTS. In those cases, bass
    redirection might be necessary.

    Kal
     
    Kalman Rubinson, Nov 6, 2003
    #4
  5. Be careful , though because some SACD/DVD-A players do not do
    rerouting of .1 channel material to the mains, even thought they
    should .
     
    Steven Sullivan, Nov 6, 2003
    #5
  6. Given the title he gave to this thread, I assume he's interested
    in both hi-rez formats.
     
    Steven Sullivan, Nov 6, 2003
    #6
  7. Yup. As I said: "You should check the specific
    players that interest you to confirm they have this facility."

    Kal
     
    Kalman Rubinson, Nov 6, 2003
    #7
  8. Oops. My fault for not reading carefully. However, his inclusion of
    DVD-A reinforces my recommendation that he determine that his new
    player have the ability to re-direct the LFE/sub signals since they
    are more ubiquitous on DVD-A than on SACD. In fact, I'd think it a
    necessary feature for him and others lacking a sub even if they needed
    it only for a minority of their discs.

    Kal
     
    Kalman Rubinson, Nov 6, 2003
    #8
  9. Agreed. One problem, though , is that magazine reviews don't always test
    bass management in both directions (even Sound & Vision, which routinely
    cites crossover data for player BM, doesn't seem to do tests
    of bidirectionality ) And information gathered online
    can be inaccurate. I'd like to see magazines do full tests of
    BM and delay management in all formats, rather than the sketches
    we get now....or have manufacturers be more explicit
    about what their products actually do.
     
    Steven Sullivan, Nov 6, 2003
    #9
  10. Right. The responsibility for this is primarily the manufacturer's.
    Invariably, when I begin fiddling with a new device I find things that
    are not documented well or at all. Unfortunately, with the complexity
    of some of these player/processors, it is hard to explore all the
    possibilities.

    Kal
     
    Kalman Rubinson, Nov 6, 2003
    #10
  11. maab

    Penury Guest

    Hi Kal:
    What do we look for in the specs ? Terminology ?

    -=Bill Eckle=-

    Vanity Web pages at:
    http://www.wmeckle.com
     
    Penury, Nov 7, 2003
    #11
  12. Simple. All channels are potentially 100% modulated. Mixing in signals from
    another channel potentially doubles the modulation, requiring 6dB of
    headroom.
    But that is not all. According to Dolby, the subwoofer channel is more
    powerful than the other channels. So they require a higher mix-in level,
    making the necessary headroom even greater (the exact figure slips my mind).
     
    Bruno Putzeys, Nov 7, 2003
    #12
  13. Ha. Had not thought of that. OTOH, that 6dB has not been a
    significant loss, subjectively, in the few times I've tried this
    arrangement.
    Are you sure this applies to SACD and not just DVD-A?

    Kal
     
    Kalman Rubinson, Nov 7, 2003
    #13
  14. Not in specs but in the manual. Of course, it's usually too late when
    you finally have access to that but some manuals are downloadable.
    I would look for a despcription of the options on the menus for
    channel set-ups.

    An alternative is to get an Outlaw ICBM bass manager which permits the
    sub/LFE channel to be rerouted to the main L/R speakers.

    Kal
     
    Kalman Rubinson, Nov 7, 2003
    #14
  15. maab

    maab Guest

    Are you saying that not having a separate subwoofer maybe degrades the
    LF? What is SNR?
    My speakers, Kef 107, go down flat to 20Hz and for that reason I don't
    see why I would need a Sub.

    The player I'm interested in purchasing is a Denon 2900, supposedly is
    a universal player. Didn't go through completely their manual online,
    but I could find anything on their index about bass management, thou.
    Thank you for your valuable inputs,
     
    maab, Nov 8, 2003
    #15
  16. Only DVD. SACD doesn't have rerouting of bass.

     
    Bruno Putzeys, Nov 14, 2003
    #16
  17. ??? Again, I ask if this is universally true. Both the new Sony
    XA9000ES and the Denon 5900 (neither of which I have used yet) have
    bass management for SACD. Also, I recall that the XA777ES had several
    bass management modes for MCH, not all of which included a subwoofer,
    iirc. This weekend, I will explore that with both Sonys.

    Kal
     
    Kalman Rubinson, Nov 14, 2003
    #17
  18. I'm not sure what Bruno is talking about either.
    Most players now have bass management for SACD. A few even have
    delay management.




    --

    -S.

    "They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
    -- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director
     
    Steven Sullivan, Nov 14, 2003
    #18
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