Some suggestions for room-compatible speakers...

Folks,

Elsewhere the debate rages on the subject of listening rooms, how they should be arranged and all that.

As many know my view that it is preferable to have speakers designed to not need extensive room treatment and all that, here some notes on speakers I feel deliver this to a varying degree, but in all cases moreso than most common designs.

The Linkwitz Orion and Phoenix Designs seem good choices, especially if combined with a Behringer DCX2496 Crossover and a suitable set of moderate power multichannel amplifiers. The Orion would need 4 Channels per side (suggests the use of a pair of 5-Way Home Theater Amp's) at around 50 - 100W, the Phoenix could use 5 Channels per side, both are best limited to small/medium room sizes though. Found at www.linkwitzlab.com .

The same goes for John K's NAO design ( www.musicanddesign.com ).

Further, the new Dipole Speaker from Jamo looks like it uses Seas Millenium Tweeter and Seas 5" Magnesium cone Midrange with a pair of 15" Woofers and is completely passive. I'm sure this would not be too difficult to replicate in DIY.

An alternative I would favour instead of these, especially for larger rooms would be a Legacy Whisper semi-clone, which gives an excellent midrange/treble directivity together with a seriously airmoving capable LF section.

My temptation would be to use 4pcs Audax PR170M0 Pro Audio Midranges ideally C37 lacquered in a relatively large sealed or labyrinth enclosure. This will give around 101db/W/m and 200W RMS power handling with an intended operational range of 150Hz - 1.5KHz, probably first order lowpass.

Add a suitable ribbon (Aurum Cantus G3/G1?) using dispersion control (waveguide) in the horizontal plane and mechanical timealignment with a passive crossover (3rd order HP to give a decent group delay mathcing the midrange).

Then you have a more or less time/(im)pulse coherent near pointsource with a around 80 degrees horizontal beamwidth (narrower if the acoustic labyrinth is targeted at attaining this and the tweeters dispersion is suitably managed) and progressively narrowing vertical dispersion from around 50 degrees at frequencies below 1KHz to around 20 degrees in the high treble.

This array has > 100db/W/m efficiency (so low distortion and compression at normal SPL's) and uncritical impedance and is capable of operating from around 150...250Hz upwards, depending on SPL's, power applied and x-over slopes.

I'd probably try a 3rd order highpass on the Midranges, though a first order one might be perfectly feasible. This whole midrange/treble array gets driven from your amplifier, whatever this might be, at > 100db/W/m you might find a few watt suffice in most rooms, 10 - 20 Watt will be needed in larger rooms.

Then use a set of 4pcs 15" - 18" Woofer (I had good results with Eminence Kappa 18 Woofers for dipoles at affordable cost) in the whisper style dipoles and drive them active using a suitable digital X-Over/EQ combo and amplifier(s) taking the signal from the drive to the Midrange/Treble array (so a "halve-active" system).

The LF section will already be quite room friendly but having a DEQ/XO Combo we can of course get the response at LF further improved. In terms of Power amplification, IIRC Eminence rates the Kappa 18 at 500W.

We have used a pair of Kappa 18 per side as dipole in very a very large room (large enough for a small pipe organ, two Claviacembali [Harpsichord in anglaise] and a piano grand plus other stuff) with around 300W per driver in Linkwitz Phoenix style dipoles and had loads of headroom for equalising the dipole loss and to raise seriosu SPL's without bottoming out the drivers or clipping the amplifiers.

Anyway, some thoughts for those who would like to try stuff that's a bit more off the Wall.

Ciao T

 

Thorsten,

what musical instruments have very narrow directivity if I might ask?

 

hmmmn

indoors or outside ?

 

Oh just get it over and done with Thorsten, buy yourself some in-ear headphones!

 

Hi,

Hmmm. Wre you trying to have musical instruments? I can recommend a good teacher if you want to build some.

Speakers are not musical instruments, by and large, with the exception of those used in conjunction with Hammond Organs, Stratocasters, Telecaster and Les Pauls and the occasional Washburn (and other E-Guitar & Bass).

This point is arguable however, if a speaker should be omnidirctional, highly directional or even of variable directionality.

I usually suggest Omnidirectional speakers if you want a "they are here" feeling, in other words bring the music to fill the room. As a result the original recording acoustics are obliterated, tonal colorations match those of the room, like if the musicians where actually there. Excellent speakers for that kind of approach are made by a company founded by Amar Bose and carries his name.

I find even the concept of a small Jazz Combo squeezed in my living room uncomfortable, the listening moreso. Never mind large classical orchestras. Omni's are an aquired taste and those who like them are most welcome to them.

I usually suggest highly directional speakers if you want to take the actual room the music is payed in out of the equation. In other words the "you are there" sensation, this is especially something for classical and simple ensembles, where with the right style of recording the effect is stunning. That said the complex and amazing sonic landscapes build in modern electronic recordings can be as intreaguing.

Usually recordings are made using directional mikes and replayed using either highly directional speakers and/or acoustic nonenvoironment rooms (fancy way of saying approaching an anechonic chamber). Played back via highly directional speakers (or normal ones in heavily treated rooms) these recordings tend to sound close to what one hears in the control room, in other whatever producer, artist, sound engineer and mastering engineer have decided was "the sound".

Something to think about, why do THX theatrical sou8nd mixes translate excellently to domestic THX (propper) systems.... Because THX Speakers are required to be quite highly directional, that's why.

If you do not want to hear what the creators of the recording wanted to convey you can use whatever you like, as long as you enjoy the results. Just it is a distortion (quite severe) of the recording, but if the result pleases, who am I to say it is wrong. I'm just not interested in the results for my own use.

Ciao T

PS, highly recommended system upgrade for people who like their speakers to be musical instruments:

 

Hi,

They are sadly entierly inapropriate for what I am after. 99% of all recordings made and released in stere are "speaker stereo" and not "head related" stereo. Past that, most in-ear headphones have severe colorations inherently and would require considerable added EQ to become "neutral" in tonality.

I have recently started to experiment with preprocessing the tracks I play in my little Pocket PC / Phone / Walkmen Player thingeymabobbie. After a good deal of EQ and after applying a good deal of crossfeed and so on I find I got the music out of my head and for my own ears and headphones a subjectively neutral balanced (it will not sound so to most other people of course).

So, it works to make listening largely to dancefloor, trance and techno on the bus & tube acceptable, it still has the problem with acoustical music I remember from 15 or more years ago when we experimented with Koss and Stax Electrostatic headphones and extensive re-eq and crossfeed in order to do some serious blind testing on the effect certain filters, transformers etc.

Maybe one could construct in DSP a virtual anechonic (or near so) chamber and place a virtual head with suitable virtual microphones for head related stereo in there and then feed the output via DSP from these virtual mikes to a real set of headphones and include a sensor that accounts for movements of the real head with the headphones on and thus adjusts the "virtual" recording head in the virtual room.

That MIGHT even work and allow even for some room cues to be reintroduced, I have not come across anything like it anywhere, not even as concept. So, no, headphones are not a solution that is workable right now, sadly.

Ciao T

PS, in case it was not obvious, the only setup that gives a consistent stereo image over a wide lateral field requires highly directional speakers with an even off axis response and strong toe in. Just compare the chart (in my technical yahoo group) of subjective stereo steering vs. time difference and level difference to make the why clear.

 

Yes and THX loudspeakers are generally accepted to sound compromised on two channel simply because of their controlled directivity?

Do you know of a THX setup you would recommend for music listening?

 

Hi,

And WHAT EXACTLY has that got to do with price of tea in china.

You are missing my point completely. The mixing sound stage (in other words movie theater) requires certain design features and performance in speakers. By matching these suitably transposed into the Home THX Speaker the mix from the huge auditorium of the Cinema translates directly with minimal remastering into the home.

If you want a mix from a studio (which is usually fairly dead acoustically AND often uses directional speakers) and/or from minimally miked acoustic recordings to translate well into the living room you need to in effect match what happens in the studio.

The worst way to do that is to use speakers with poor directivity, UNLESS you are prepared to treat yourroom acoustically to the same standards employed by Studios using speakers with, shall we say, unpredicatble and wide directivity.

Ignoring for the moment the impact on home decor, the cost of building the studio for propper acoustics (it is not common to convert existing rooms, though it can be done) and treating it suitably usually is a fair multiple of any speaker system installed.

So these are the options if you want the Studio Mixes and minimally miked acoustical recordings to translate well into acosustically small rooms, speakers with highly controlled directivity and extensive room treatment and speakers with poorely controlled directivity.

You seem not to desire for recordings to translate well, which is fine with me, as long as that is clear. Define your goals and choose your solutions.

My goals are a close approach to the recording, remastering if required using suitable tools (Cello Palette, Behringer DEQ2496, Weiss Media Mastering (D)EQ, Burwen "Audio Splendor", Waves Rennisance Parametric EQ 6-Way (my preferred EQ for PC use) and that without applying extensive room treatments.

I suspect these goals will be compatible with those of quite a few people, if not, WTFDIC.

If you have what you think are better solutions to the above goals or have different solutions for different goals, why not share them with others? It might actually contribute something of use to others....

Ciao T

 

Thorsten,

No I do see your point, I just don't neccessarily agree that the nearfield experience leads to an enjoyable and relaxing listening experience, nor a particularly involving one with many genres of music.

I've been there, done that. I would agree that it is more faithful to the recording, placing you at the venue rather than bringing the musicians into your room. Tact DRC is very good at creating the same effect BTW.

From a high fidelity point of view you can either unnaturally limit the dispertion of sound, or control it's effect. Both approaches are valid.

For musical enjoyment, there is no right way or wrong way IMO. Many people prefer to listen to systems that interact with the room - nothing wrong with that if they are getting the musical message (the stage and acoustic are often totally superfluous to that - unlike in a carefully crafted 5.1 movie soundtrack)

 

Sorry what, I wasn't listening? lol, was I the only one who didn’t get that?!

A good set of in-ear 'phones like the ETYMotic's are pretty natural, and I expect they have extremely low distortion as well.

If music was recorded expecting to be heard in this manor I think it could work pretty well, just like you suggest (e.g. binaural recordings). Something like the dummy heads with mics in the ears for the recording. There would be the issue of simulating the shape of each persons ears but I think one could get used to it. There has not been a lot of research put in to this in comparison to speaker stereo and I think if we tried we could get it pretty much like being where the recording mics were!

Close mic'ed music.. well that would be another thing. I suppose it would change how we record a lot of music. If not, at least it would be mastered differently with DSP to compensate for not using the ideal mic'ing techniques.

I find listening with highly directional speakers is a bit too much like listening in a sound proof recording booth. Unatural. Yes it gets you closer to the recording but.. while highly directional speakers are used as recording monitors, this is done so the engineer can hear the recording. They are a tool. When it comes to mastering the music and applying things like mastering reverb using simulated room acoustics of famous venues etc... do they use highly directional speakers? Not from what I have mostly seen. They mix it expecting the music to be played in a room that has reflections.
Now you can keep these reflections and the overall feel of how the music was intended to be played, but also gain most of the control and insight to the music by heavily treating your room with diffusors at first reflection points (and more if you can), decent bass traps in the corners and broadband absorption at a few places to reduce mid-range colouration. Plus whatever else floats your room! Doing this you get the best of both worlds I feel.

So, on one hand you say you use speakers that get you closer to the information on the recording. Thats fine. But it doesn't mean thats how the music was made to be heard. You should add a reverb unit to your system. You pre-process the music for headphone use as that’s ‘not how its expected to be played’ but not for your Hi-Fi when the same is true!

I am only fighting back for fun by the way, I have no issues with how you do things!

I think we ALL agree on one thing though. Even off-axis response is a good thing. How much of it is another...

 

Tenson, you are wise beyond your years.

 

Thats pretty good going for a 91 year old!

 

Hi,

I notice. Anyway, I am wasting my time arguing about issues you simply lack the background knowledge to discuss and the willingness to admit other may have a point. I have better things to do. All that needs saying has been said anyway.

L8er T

 

Careful Tenson - Sm will start calling you young lad!

Interesting post thorsten - how would I tackle the stunt bass requirement? I am totally with you on the issue of directionality - though I think room treatment still has a place.

 

R 909

Hi Thorsten,
Interesting comments - have you heard the R909? I see there's a review in this month's Prestige Audio Vidéo. I think their monolithic form is gorgeous:

 

speakers on a plank?

 

I think someone should remind Jamo that the world is populated with curious children. I forsee much smacking in store for the "lucky" owners....

 

Sticky fingers

They come with front and rear grills to ward off sticky fingers.

 

Hi,

Sorry, I'm not sure I follow. ""Stunt Bass"?

Are we talking the vibrations caused on the moon siurface (in a near perfect vacuum too!) by the overflight of the alien mothership in Independence Day? The Explosions and wall of Napalm (damn do I love the smell of Naplm in the morning) in Forrest Gump? Are we talking cannons on the Telarc 1812? Or the traditional Telarc Kettle Drums?

If so, I see little relation to music and do not consider this myself a "requirement". My requirement is merely to cope with the finale St Saen's #3 at elevated levels (hard enough BTW).

For chest crushing bass you allways need to monopole sub to operate in the rooms pressure region, as there dipoles quickly loose any output in room and merely flap around.

Room treatment has places and often it is worth applying targeted. An example is found on REG's website where he comments on that big MacIntosh linesource speaker. A piece of wall projecting in the room needed treating with foam to eliminate an early reflection, after which the Speaker, in room and in a fairly live room showed freedom from any refections for well past 40mS.

That is the result of good speaker directivity combined with sensible and essential room treatment.

Ciao T

 

Hi,

Not yet. I am reasonably familiar with the design principles though, so they should have a pretty good performance. The Midrange/Treble units are the same/similar as in their very well received High End Models (Seas Millenimum/Excel, also favoured by Siegfried Linkwitz).

Ciao T