Sound leve in classical music

During the last months I had more and more discussions about the sound levels of classical music in the concert halls and at home.
My supposition was that the sound level of a full orchestra with its dynamic could be reproduced at home. Another assumption of mine was that often we have a wrong presumption of the live level and listen at home louder than actually it would sound in a concert hall.

I received weeks ago from a German friend of mine the HiFish with which also measures the sound level.
Last week I was practically every evening at the concert hall listening twice to the same concert and also the rehearsals. The program was quite simple: third symphony of Mahler.
For those who are not familiar to this symphony I would just say that they were about 350 musicians, about 200 in the orchestra, alto, female choir and boy choir.
So there were all premises to have a great dynamic.

I have chosen different places during these days so I could have an idea how the sound level changes in the hall. Unfortunately during the rehearsals they put huge curtains after the row 20 so it was useless to do measurement beyond that point. During the first concert I did some from the balcony at the end of the concert hall, opposite of the orchestra.

When sitting in row 11 (actually it was row 6 because they had to replace the first 5 rows for enlarging the stage) the dynamic was from 30-35 db to 96 db (twice). The average was between 70-80 db. When sitting in the balcony the dynamic was strangely not much less. The peaks were about 2 - 3 db less. The quietist passages were though less quiet and were sometimes quieter than the public. I didn't do too many measurements then because I wanted to listen also to the music.
The last concert I was in the 4th row but I didn't bring the Hifish with. I just wanted to enjoy the music.

At home I measured first the loudest passages from the same symphony directed by Abbado (Wiener Philarmoniker, Norman, Wiener Sängerknaben,..) at the level which I usually hear it. It wasn't as so loud (missing about 5-6 db) so I had to turn the volume up from about 12 o'clock to 1 or 2 o'clock. The sound level throughout the symphony was quite much the same as recorded in the concert hall. I was quite amazed by these results.
The next rehearsals I will go to, I will continue these kinds of measurements. I am particularly interested in chamber music or orchestra works like Mozart's Haydn's symphonies.
The next opportunity will be the 7th of Dvorak and Sibelius violin concert.

 

Now I'm being quite serious: you will certainly damage your hearing if you get 96db at home!!! Yes, your system is realistic, but save your ears to enjoy it. I am being quite serious about this!

 

These measurements weren't done to demonstrate that my system can be realistic. In fact most systems can reach that level. To be then objective what you mean is that going to concerts can damage seriously your ears!
For this concert the SUWA (*) did also measurements (to defend the interests of the employees) and recorded peeks of 115 db on the stage. All these musicians and conductors must be fully deaft.

The 96 db that I measured happened once during the whole symphony for a split of a second. The level of 93 dbs was reached about 10 times most of them also for a split of a second. Once I think it was for few seconds long.

Anyway it is very loud and it is surely not sane to hear that every day. This symphony represents though quite an extreme.
But there are some conductors like Gergiev who puts in lots of dynamik in his interpretations (Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Tschaikowsky) that I would be surprised he reaches the 100db!


(*) http://www.suva.ch/

 

50 % of orchestra musicians suffer from tinnitus.

 

WHAT, CAN YOU SAY THAT LOUDER?

 

I once read that solo piano could peak at 109 dB and so I did a series of calculations in an Excel spreadsheet on what amps and speaker sensitivity I needed to achieve "realistic" peaks. Just for a bit of fun, really, to see if I was in the right ballpark at home. The article is at http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/109138.html

 

Steve,
my point was to get real measurements and not just "heard about". When and where were those 109 db measured?
After finding out that the peaks of a huge orchestra was about 96 db (once or twice) I just cannot believe that where I was sitting (4-8th row) in the concert hall, I would get more than 90-92 dbs durig a piano recital. This I will check out in the further concerts (rehearsals).

I know these figures depend also on the hall.

 

That is the point: they are. Did you know there is a blossoming industry of deafness earpieces for classical musicians?

A large orchestra can go way higher than that. I think the maximum recorded was something like 125 or even higher. In musical circles the deafness problem is very real and even if soloists do not speak about it much, their problem is an accute one, too. And I am forced to say that many professional musicians I know are really rather deaf: you cannot just talk normally. I am not deaf because I am an amateur, and everytime I feel tiredness in listening I cease playing. But I fully recall times when I did play in public, and the preparation of the concerts (well, they were not real concerts, kind of recitals) was clearly difficult.

Anyway, do a Google search about that and you should be able to find interesting data. I cannot, just now, as I am very pressed for time.

Anyway, take care of your ears.

There was a repport

 

Romantic music, which has a lot of variation in loudness, is especially dangerous - you know that Beethoven became deaf from listening to his own music.

Baroque music is less dynamic but has many more notes. It is very dangerous to the eyes -Bach became blind from watching all those notes.

Modern music is dangerous to the mind.

Renaissance music is safest.

 

Well guys, I'm selling my stuff here and converting to meditation...

 

So be it. I have warned you, you scorned. Not my problem.

 

Looking forward to your updates. This is something I have thought of doing but never attempted, as I thought it would not go down well with the women sitting nearby and not sure how to explain the reason without appearing like a total geek. What meter did you bring along these concerts?

 

During the Rehearsals there aren't problems to disturb the person sitting nearby. There are not so many people (except for the 3rd Mahler). I hope I can go on Wednesday with the following program:
- Fantasie on a theme from Thomas Tallis (Vaughan Williams)
- Sibelius violon concert (Mullova)
- Dvorak seventh
Has anybody heard and can say something about Marin Alsop interpretations?

During the concert I'll not do measurements.

I have an HiFish from Cara (41 - 115 dB) lent from a friend of mine. I bought recently a sound level meter which meets requirements of IEC651 for type II sound level meters. It has a frequency range of 31.5 Hz - 8kHz and measurement range (35 - 130 dbs), accuracy +- 1db.

 

The SUVA just did tests in the rehearsal room of the Lucerne Concert Hall (KKL) and in the pit of our small theatre. While we are still waiting for the results, a fellow musician (who also just recorded Mahler 3 with the Tonhalle and really suffered, as usually the louder passages in Mahler do not last that long, but in the recording situation there may of course be several takes of that specific passage...) told me that SUVA tests in the pit of the Zurich Opera House recorded peaks of over 130 dB...
Thus I won't be surprised if we had even higher peaks in the pit of Lucerne's small theatre (one of the smallest pits in small Switzerland) while rehearsing Eugen Onegin.
I'll report when I know more - interesting topic.

 

This might be a propos.

The problem with symphonic music is that there are peaks at 130 dB, but when one is exposed to continuous blasts of even 90 dB these effects summate.

Looking forward to your further posts.

 

Well I am glad that someone is interested in this topic even if it is not very "musical".
It encourages me to write some more...

Till tonight.

 

So here are some figures regarding todays concert and rehearsal.

The Tonhalle Orchestra directed by Marin Alsop
Mullova: violon

Fantasy on a Theme by Thomas Tallis
The range is between 40 dbs and slightly less than 80 dbs
The background noise in the hall (public) was between 35-40 dbs measured at the end of the hall (left corner).

Sibelius: violon concert
At the Rehearsal I was sitting in the left balcony abou at the level of the fourth row and 3 meters above the orchestra (violon side).

The sound level of the violon was between 55 and 70 dbs. The orchestra was between 65 and 92 dbs.
During the concert at the end of the hall the level was about 3-4 dbs less.

Dvorak: symphony no. 7
The first movement was between 65 and 91 dbs
The peak during the second movement was 93 while at the end of the symphony it reached 94.
As with Mahler's symphonies the peak was higher but very shortly (the level went very quickly under 90 dbs), the seventh of Dvorak has passages for over a minute which are louder than 90 dbs.

 

Not surprising. The Royal Danish Theatre in Copenhagen (Old scene), the location where these musicians most often play, was first and foremost built for scene-plays and not for opera. This is immediately obvious to me when present because of the relative modest size of the room and the noise level, which in this room easily may become ear-splitting, when the full orchestra plays Wagner or something alike. The orchestra pit reflects and increases the sound in an unpleasant way (which I don't think is characteristic of usual concert halls) making the sound hermetic and marked by high pressure.

Regards,

 

So here are some further figures regarding todays concert .
The Kammerorchester Basel conducted by Giovanni Antonini
Katia + Marielle Labèque: piano

This chamber orchestra has about 40 musicians.
When listening to Rossini and Mendelssohn I was sitting in the balcony aprox. row 24 to the left, 3 meters above the orchestra.
Listening to Beethoven I was sitting in row 10 very central.

Rossini: Ouverture "l'Italiana in Algeri"
The range was between 35 dbs and about 86 dbs. The peaks (about 3-4) were for less than a second each. Mostly the range was between 65 - 80 db.
The background noise in the hall (public) was about 35 dbs measured in both places.

Mendelssohn: Concert for two pianos and orchestra
The range was between 38 and 84 db. The peaks were about 1-2 and very short. Mosty the range was between 60 and 75.
The level of the two pianos wasn't higher than about 78 db.

Beethoven: symphony no. 3
The peak was just 90 db while more often there were other peaks of 87-88 db. Mostly the range was between 65 - 82 db.


PS: great concert and great interpretation. Very particular and interesting sound for Beethoven when played by a chamber orchestra. Antonini squeezed those strings out as much as he could. Nice talk with him and the sisters Labèque after the concert.

 

Well, we finally got some results from the measurements the SUVA (Swiss Accident Insurance Fund) did.

Music was Tchaikovsky's Eugen Onegin; to get maximum peaks the Polonaise from the beginning of act III was played.

Measurements were done
a) in the rehearsal room (about 1,500 m3) and
b) in the theatre's orchestra-pit (pit alone: about 180 m3, the auditorium adds another 1,300 m3, the stage room has about 2500 m3 - so it's difficult to really tell the effective volume though 2/3 of the it are covered!).

The microphones were placed with headsets directly next to each musician's right ear (one of each register).

The results are sort of frightening - but not really surprising:

For the violins peaks were about 95 db in both rooms.
Celli: 91 db in the rehearsal room / 95 in the pit
Bassi: 87 db in the rehearsal room / 92 in the pit
Timpani: 94 db in the rehearsal room / 93 in the pit
Corni: 94 db in the rehearsal room / 100 in the pit
Trumpets: 96 db in the rehearsal room / 99 in the pit
Trombones: 93 db in the rehearsal room / 92 in the pit
Flutes: 94 db in the rehearsal room / 99 in the pit
Clarinets: 92 db in the rehearsal room / 96 in the pit
Bassoons: 91 db in the rehearsal room / 96 in the pit
Conductor: 89 db in the rehearsal room / 91 in the pit

Please note that the woodwinds in the pit already were 'protected' by acrylic shilds behind their heads as the brass is placed right behind them.

Regards,
mtl