The Power of the Media is Destroying this Industry

M

merlin

Joined
Jun 23, 2003
Messages
3,262
Reaction score
0
Brand awareness is everything in this century it would appear. I must admit to frustration with the sheep otherwise known as the British HiFi Buyer.

This comes on the back of trying to sell lesser known and promoted brands on the second hand market and from others reports of similar findings. These so called music lovers will bite each others hands off to buy the latest crock of shite from B&W, Arcam, Musical Fatality and Krell. Why can this be? If they took the time to listen to lesser konwn alternatives, like many of the ZG regulars do, they would get better sound for less. But no! What HiFi (aptly titled but for all the wrong reasons) and HIFI(No) Choice haven't reviewed it so it must be crap. Much safer to buy something recommended by the "experts", who are totally uninfluenced by marketing budgets and hospitality.

The sad thing is that many small, relatively unknown manufacturers are making kit that puts the big boys to shame. But if the market continues to be totally dominated by advertorials and brand awareness many of these beacons of light will simply disappear, their vision and caring attitude lost forever.

Take Aloia amps- cracking value and great sound. A dealer I know took a couple of units in but admited he simply cannot sell them, despite them sounding far better than some better known alternatives. What about Dynavector, Anotek, Gryphon and Spectron? Hell even BelCanto can't establish itself over here!

So who's to blame? Is it the retail outfits or are we just a nation of mindless morons conditioned to take percieved safety first and to conform for the sake of social acceptability? Sadly I think it's the latter.

What I can say with certainty is that both BelCanto and Sim take Krell to the cleaners at half the price, that the likes of Verity, Alon, Amphion, Meadowlark and Merlin make speakers B&W and Kef could only dream of at the price, and that even WM makes cables that outstrip the likes of Nordost and Transparent's high end monstrosities!

But try telling that to a bunch of zombies. Sadly I can't see a way out of this situation, so this rant is, I admit, rather pointless. But if anyone is reading this, answers to the name "Flossy", and speaks fluent Baa, wake up and smell the coffee!!
 
Couldnt agree more mate, although I do kind of understand the safety first mentality of many buyers having been left high and dry with my dpa gear.

Use you ears and not those bloody mags to make a decision.

Robbo
 
I know what you mean mate.

Most people who come in my house think my amps look like science experiments.

I dont mind robot purchasing, it leaves the tasty stuff for discerning ladies and gents, such as our good selves.

The bit that pisses me off - is when advice is asked for and ignored.... I mean, if you're not going to believe me when I say an XXXX is miles better than a YYYY because youve heard of YYYY and not an XXXX then why bloody ask? .. Ive kind of come to the conclusion people ask for advice on hifi because they want you to back them up on the decision theyve already made!!!!!

Still.... samsung might make very nice mobiles, but I bet you always get Nokias, and youre in the industry!! we're all guilty of going for the safe options..
 
It's just a simple case of, as you say, brand awareness. These small-name companies may make great stuff, but if I've never heard of them, I certainly won't buy them secondhand! Sadly only a tiny percentage of hifi buyers will actually go to the trouble of browsing a forum such as this to expand their hifi horizons - most will be content with a quick browse through the latest What Hifi, etc. That's just the way people work (and it certainly ain't limited to Blighty!)

What I don't find excusable is what you later touched on - that often people will listen to a little-known product with their own ears in a shop, hear for themselves that it sounds better than the What Hifi 5-star product, and still go with the latter, for comfort, or social acceptance, or whatever other reason. That's just sickening.

Personally, I take a certain amount of enjoyment in owning something that What Hifi has never heard of... It's kinda nice to have a less-well-educated hifi enthusiast, brought up on the Arcams and KEFs of this world, come 'round and listen to your system only to be blown away by kit he never knew existed. :)

This was the case with my ATC Active 10s & CA-2 preamp (with a decidedly more mainstream Meridian 506.24 CD player) system when I first got it. At the time, ATC hadn't been featured in the mainstream mags in years (or even decades!) and certainly wouldn't be considered to be a big name. I had so much fun blowing the minds of every hifi fan who came and had a listen. :)

Sadly, ATC have now been reviewed (and reviewed very well) in most of the mainstream mags, even - amazingly - garnering What Hifi's Loudspeaker of the Year. :eek: So I don't have quite the same ability to surprise and impress... ;)

Though maybe the recent awareness WHF has given to some of the lesser known brands is a sign of improvement. I seem to remember Totem and Meadowlark speakers appearing alongside the ATC SCM-12s in a recent speaker roundup. Granted the former didn't get quite the glowing reviews of the latter ( :MILD: ) but at least it's a step in the right direction.

Dunc
 
This is true to a large extent, although...

Meadowlarks are very popular in the US. The UK buyer is unaware of them as they're a US brand with little distribution here, and no press coverage. Some of the other mentioned brands are similar, with bigger home markets than here.

It works both ways though... If people did realise how good meadowlarks are, I'd not have been able to get mine as they would have been significantly more expensive...

Same goes for the superDAC (pro gear, not "hifi"). Nothing would stop m-audio from putting the transformer inside a bigger case with RCAs rather than the 1/4" jacks, and selling it for £500 and getting good reviews (note to M-audio: If you do this, I demand royalties! And one of the new DACs). Then they could do a few of the mods that myself and WM have been playing with, and sell it as the model up for £800.

I agree with dunky about the no-name stuff... The unassuming little superDAC and the meadowlarks are good for this (the meadowlarks are so good that I bought a pair... I couldn't afford to buy the company!)
 
Originally posted by bottleneck
I know what you mean mate.

Still.... samsung might make very nice mobiles, but I bet you always get Nokias, and youre in the industry!! we're all guilty of going for the safe options..
Click to expand...

Nokia is a very good case in point, although they do have the advantage of TFI* that people are familar with. The fact that around 30% of the go wrong within a few months, that their customer service is second only to Sky TV, and they have shite reception matters not a jot:mad: You try selling an owner something else!


The bit that pisses me off - is when advice is asked for and ignored.... I mean, if you're not going to believe me when I say an XXXX is miles better than a YYYY because youve heard of YYYY and not an XXXX then why bloody ask? .. Ive kind of come to the conclusion people ask for advice on hifi because they want you to back them up on the decision theyve already made!!!!!
Click to expand...

That's the real problem! I know of people who have openly admitted to preferring the unknown under "blind" conditions who still go and buy the shit they see in the mags. And we wonder why quality hifi is dying? Big money on music should mean big grins and happiness, not self satisfied smug showing off to the Jones'.

It's just a simple case of, as you say, brand awareness. These small-name companies may make great stuff, but if I've never heard of them, I certainly won't buy them secondhand!
Click to expand...

But Dunk, you wouldn't buy new without a quick listen would you? So why don't these pillocks give something new a chance? It's only a phone call and some listening.

Meadowlarks are very popular in the US. The UK buyer is unaware of them
Click to expand...

A good point Isaac. I was visiting a dealer today who has has the Avid rep round. I told him to have a listen to the Meadowlarks but he simply made a pathetic bird joke and pointed me to the B&W 700 series:rolleyes:

I feel the power is with the high street retailer. They are influenced purely by margin and incentives, both of which are copiously provided by the likes of MF and Absolute Sounds. Hence why we end up paying more for less. What we need is a chain of out of town retailers offering really good sounds, but with the collective clout to influence the reviewing policies of the mainstream publications. It's time for a strategic alliance between the small independents I feel.




*Twat Friendly Interface
 
Originally posted by merlin
A good point Isaac. I was visiting a dealer today who has has the Avid rep round. I told him to have a listen to the Meadowlarks but he simply made a pathetic bird joke and pointed me to the B&W 700 series:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Indeed. The other issue for meadowlark specifically being that they take a bit of time to run in. Like a good 200 hours at least (very least WM... :p), which means that any dealer demo pair is unlikely to be anywhere near... I took a real leap of faith with mine, having heard WM's. When they arrived, they were boomy, slow and pretty horrendous. They sound very different now, and the leap of faith was rewarded.
 
Having a vested interest in this thread, I'll try and be as neutral as I can :)
They're is more than a smattering of turth of marketing stratergy at work in the UK, at work in all levels of Hifi, from the richers sounds entry to the mighty hifi end monsters, in gerenal, my experiance with ALL forms of hifi products boils down to 2 crux points :rolleyes:
1. Longevity
2. High profile marketing
Arrh you would say they that I here you cry, tis a fair point, however this week having graphicaly experianced this, and finding it hard to fathom, until 'seeing it in the flesh', is a real eye opener.
For me the best kit is the stuff that hasn't, hit the big time yet, the name hasn't quite settled, I was at a high profile retail outlet this week, while a saleperson was demostarting 2 items to a customer, a pair of amplifiers and 3 different inter-connects, now the amps were quite close, in performance and build, the looks were neither one way or the other, the price was close too (within £200) which is niether here nor there at the testing point, yet the customer clearly choose the 'better known one' over the lesser known model, even though the subjective sound was audioably better in virtualy every dept, next with the interconnects, one was a very well known brand, the other 2 we less so, however the lesser well know verieties were 'a good notch or 2 higher' than the known versions, now is this 2 fold buying as in the 'safe established' brands or a higher re-sale value potenial ?
either way the gentlemean concerned, did not leave the premises with the best possible sound/price advantage (this is my view)
maybe a better step than a/b testing would the 2 week trial, leave the components in for 14 days, then revert back to the orginal set up, then make a judgement.
I liken this to when Volkswagen took over Skoda, every one laughed, now look, the skoda outperform the VW's in every customer servey & price point. Wm
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Taking a leap of faith on what might be considered to be a relative unknown is one of the major issues though. People are much more likely to take big risks like these in times of fiancial boom, but when the purse strings are tied... (a point I mentioned in another thread).

Re-sale value is an important issue IMO and one which most prudent buyers weigh up (and the issues surrounding re-sale might not necessarily be connected with upgradeitis either ;) ). Although at this stage, I'd hope to buy and not to sell on if I was really that smitten with the item, but you can never tell what may happen.

Going it alone and importing a product will save you money, but then you don't get easy access to local service attention should you need it.

As for using magazines to make final buying decisions, yes I'm sure the vast majority do do that, and those that don't probably use them as a shopping brochure/catalog to see what's currently out there. So yes, we end up with regional bias of course and whatever we happen to see/hear at a dealer's shop, or read in the on-line forums we happen to visit - no one ever mentions far-east audio products around here do they ;) .

Got a phone call today from someone who wanted to buy the rest of my Hovland interconnects from me (he'd already bought a set a few months ago). He wanted another set of i/c's to go with the Sim Audio Moon Eclipse CDP that he's just ordered ex-dem from Ultimatesonics (and he also runs active ATC speakers SCM-70 - yes the limited edition 25th anniversary jobbies). So, someone else who doesn't necessarily follow the crowd. :D

[Yes, I would have pointed the guy in your direction Merl re the CDP, but looks like he's already done the transactions. :) ]
 
I completely agree that beginners tend to go too much on what mags say are good pieces of equipment rather than just using their ears, however...

I think one thing you have to remember is that people in different countries think different things sound better. They have different ears as it were...

My cd player (Arcam), amp (Cyrus) and speakers (Monitor-Audio) are all named brands and British products. However I did not choose them because I like the idea of owning British made products or named brands, but rather because to my ears Hi-Fi made in Brittan actually tends to 'sounds more right' than Hi-Fi from other counties.

So even if an amp from China supposedly sounds better and is better value it still may not sound 'right' to people bought up in Brittan or other countries.

If you are used to Hi-Fi from all over then you probably wouldn't notice it. However if you are like me and have been bought up on all British makes then I bet you will understand what I am saying about other brands or countries Hi-Fi just not sounding correct.

Also with allot of Hi-Fi you really can not judge it from first impressions. So much Hi-Fi can sound impressive on the first 15min listen but after a longer period it can become wearing and another product that wasn't so initially impressive can actually suit you and your system more. This may be a big reason why beginners trust the mags more than their own ears.

Of course this is just my opinion!!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It is very much a safety and familiarity thing. If you have never heard of something, and you 'know' say cyrus or arcam, they are like say, the nescafe of coffee or heinz tomato ketchup.

And true about selling, who is going to want something by a company called Korato....isn't that something orange that grows in the ground, even if it does wipe the floor.

There is the brand snobbery, too, I have naim, meridian, that is a bit like buying a car, and the service support.

It is 'safe' to buy a mag recommendation, esp if you are a beginner, and there comes a certain pride and confidence in something if it has a big mags endorsement. The experts have said its good, therefore it must be. I have the what hifi best buy...smug, satisfied.

Also comes cash, who wants to spend £2000, on some unknown, when you can get, say cyrus for £500?
I think this is partly why it happens, too, that if something is good enough at £500, there is no need to spend an unnecessary amount on something esoteric...ie there is nothing better than my cyrus rig at £500 each. Its sheer indulgance and criminal to spend more on music.

And I think it is the same with the retail world everywhere, not confined to hifi. This appears to be the way it works, and the big makers like it, they love it. And because they have created this safe dealership brand comfortable world, inevitable companies with less means are always going to be cottage sidelines, never able to break through. And they fiercely defend that situation, its called big buisness, and I think they implicitely understand its effect on peoples behaviour en masse, and exploit it.

And when they get their hard earned brand loyalty, they put prices up..how much, about double each time, tom evans and naim are some of the worst offenders....naims preamps, first the 32.5s were reasonable, then they created the bigger ones, the 52, charged £3000 and you needed the psu to take it to £5k, now its doubled again to over £10k for a preamp!! And yes, the bits inside really don't cost more than a few hundred..its sheer robbery, exploitation, downright theft, cheek and arrogance for this...it obscene, profiteering, there is no nice way to put it.

Tom evans eg...the iso phonostage, £600, the hr version, £900, then the groove £1900 , probably not bad for the cash in the big picture, but whooo....a new psu has sent the price rocketing to over £4000!!! :mad: greed and stupidity.

I tell you what , we knock musical fidelity but they do keep prices sensible, you do get quite a bit for your cash, I don't think certainly those valve cds are overpriced in the big scheme, so a little respect goes their way.

to a certain extent, they are at the top because they should be, they give something someone wants, cyrus/mf looks and build, naim...sound.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Reliability/service and resale value are good reasons to buy well established brands that are likely to hang around. Not that I do.
 
Another issue is perceived gravitas.

For example, put the Bel Canto next to a Rotel RB-1090... The rotel is much bigger, has big heatsinks on the front and is a brand that the magazines have made known in this country, and that's going to attract a lot of people.

By the same token, who is going to spend £1k on the rather petite, delicate looking Meadowlark Swift when you can have the B&W 700 series floorstander for similar money (the answer of course being anyone with ears :p ).

Of course, national tastes do mean a lot, but so does fashion. It's fashionable (especially now more than ever) to dislike anything american, yet they make some superb bits of kit...
 
As I see it, the problem is too much choice. This is naturally better than too little, but it means that the attainment of that perfect (for you) hi-fi involves a substantial amount of luck. It's simply not possible to hear everything and compare it, especially when you can't hear it with the right combination of components. If you want to hear X and Y together, you'll be lucky to have a dealer that has both. In the end, having a relatively small hi-fi budget, I had to find things that fitted within them and listen to them and buy. I simply don't have the time, money and interest to test zillions of components. So, I end up with good sound, which undoubtedly could be better, but I don't have the means or the patience to go looking for it. I want to get on and play music, and the equipment will always be secondary to that.

I suspect that there are lots of people out there who think exactly the same way, which is why they buy the established brand names, having used magazine reviews, etc. to narrow the field. They may not end up with the best (and the best for whom anyway?), but they get good quality sound if they use their ears. As I have said before, after a long study, I went into a shop with my list and Arcam at the top and came out with Linn, which hadn't even been on the list.

What it boils down to is that yer average hi-fi buyer is not a hobbyist as are most of the folk who contribute to websites such as this. For many of you, I suspect that the equipment is at least as important as the music, and perhaps even more so. So, don't be too hard on the ordinary guy or gal (among which I count myself) - s/he just wants to enjoy his/her music collection more, without excessive hassle. Seeing what many of you put yourselves through in search of sonic perfection, I think they have a point.
 
What it boils down to is that yer average hi-fi buyer is not a hobbyist as are most of the folk who contribute to websites such as this. For many of you, I suspect that the equipment is at least as important as the music, and perhaps even more so. So, don't be too hard on the ordinary guy or gal (among which I count myself) - s/he just wants to enjoy his/her music collection more, without excessive hassle. Seeing what many of you put yourselves through in search of sonic perfection, I think they have a point.
Click to expand...

I wonder though, how many of these average hifi buyers end up with a WHF 5 star system or somesuch and never get it to gel together and make music. They then get disillusioned and give up on hifi, selling it off and buying a cheap midi system.

Quite a large percentage I imagine. If they were sold better sounding kit in the first place then their enjoyment of music would have been greatly enhanced, and they would likely continue their interest in quality music reproduction.
 
But do you honestly think so, Robbo? Listen to your own words: "gel together and make music". This is a vocabulary of the hobbyist, not the ordinary buyer, who simply never thinks in such terms. I've been buying hi-fi equipment for 30 years now and Idon't think in those terms. All hi-fi equipment makes music, it's just a matter of whether you happen to like the sound that comes out. And most people will. You're applying standards that simply are not relevant to the man in the street. And if they like a cheap midi system, what's wrong with that? For many people, that's all they need.

Most people have not the slightest interest in making hi-fi a hobby and setting forth on an everlasting and ever more expensive path to audio Nirvana. They want something that makes a pleasant noise. If their palate becomes more refined and they want better reproduction, well and good, if not, tough.

I work in a research lab full of highly intelligent people, tops in their field, full of fascinating ideas about synthesising new molecules that smell and taste different. Their music systems are sometimes very ordinary, where they have them at all. And do they care? Not at all. Same with the patent attorney profession - I know only a few with any interest in audio. Most of these clever people just don't care, and are never going to care.

In any case, think of it this way; if the small brands did become popular, would they not then begin to act like big brands and become the new big brands, complete with product sound quality dilution? It might be better the way it is.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Tones,

we are referring to two different groups of people. I am referring to buyers who have a passing interest in sound quality who will make an effort at getting a good sound and are sold short by the magazines and lazy dealers. They then get disillusioned as their expensive hifi system is not much better than their mates midi system.

You are talking about the group of people (the majority, I know)who have no interest in sound quality and are happy with a basic midi system (nothing wrong with that btw)
 
spot on tones, it all makes music as such, just some is more 'musical ' than others, and that is in the lug of the beholder.
your average joe in the street just wants something that works ok, and as you say, if his palette is whetted, he may move on.
But I do think that a 'beginner' would baulk at the price some of us pay for sonic nirvana! considering it a luxury.

Off topic tho' and I may have the wrong end of the stick!, but why do we need synthsized stuff in our foods, if it wasn't so full of added shit, just to make it taste better as some food companies are to cheapskate to make products with real ingredients. It ceases to become food as such, and we are just eating man made rubbish.
 
I have to confess that i agree with Tones.

The whole consumer issue is worryingly necrophilic anyway.

The majority of individuals that are being referred to that have either a 'basic' seperates set up or midi system probably do not know about 'better' kit and have no appetite for investigating further anyway. They probably spend more time seeking out rare eighteenth century books on architecture or pondering the sublimity of Bosch's latest dishwasher offering.

There are lots of ways to pass the time.

I wouldn't worry. Anyone who actually wants the 'best' sound will more than likely be aware of the issues raised in this thread. The rest, therefore, are not being duped, and these individuals are not confined to the non-audiphile world either.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top