upgrade poweramp&speakers or add sub?

has anyone here added a sub-woofer as an upgrade to their standmount (bass light) speaker with success/failure?

As per sig., I've an entry level sub (75w & +/- 3db down to 35Hz), but I decided to try it out last night in support to the 2x60w into JMLabs (down to 50Hz, but definitely flattening at 40Hz). Inconclusive results so far, except for obvious addition of lower (& non-flattened) notes.

Am considering trying to source a s/h or ex-dem JMLab sub. Any pointers? Must be a French 'Hififorsale/Audiogon' somewhere ...

 

Velodyne. A few people on here have them and I'm sure will be along shortly...

 

As you can see I have the baby Velo.

I've just recalled that Rory has Ruark Logrhythm sub to support his Electra 905s.

 

yeah, try a sub...

or thos of you who conenct a velodyne to a stereo amp - what conenctions do you use to conenct it..??

presently I use the phono lead...where it is good, I'm sure it could be better...

any comments welcome!

cheers

 

my Dax Decade is dac & pre-amp, and has two pairs of 'pre-out' connections. I had one connected to the poweramp (the AL8000S in poweramp mode) and hence to the speakers. As a start, I've connected the other to the sub, selecting 55Hz as the cross over. I can accept that this just 'adds' bottom end, rather than 'tightens'.

Is the correct way to use the speaker line connection in, and hence out? That would seem sensible, allowing the sub to 'take-over' and 'tighten' the bottom end, at whatever setting; I see 80Hz is recommended in the Vx-10 booklet. (I think I may go ask Uncle over on AVTalk after work.)

 

ditton,
the velodynes referred to are the new digital drive versions. these have sophisticated dsping to integrate the sub very closely with your speakers and your room. you pay for it though as they aren't cheap. i've heard that the bass control module is to be made available seperately which would make integration of any sub a lot easier.
cheers


julian

 

I think most sub manufacturers recommend the use of the high-pass input on the sub, so the sub takes a feed from the speaker outlets of your power amp, alongside your speakers which still run their full range. You then use the crossover and gain controls very carefully and with a lot of experimentation to get the best results. I used to have a setup like this with a REL Strata II a few years ago - worked very well with ruark templars I had then. Some say sealed box speakers work best with subs in this way.

I did try similar with my Quads and a Ruark LogRythm sub but just did not work happily.

Current range of Velodyne subs have "Digital Drive" which is v. powerful digital amp to drive the sub + computer control.... you plug in a microphone and your TV set and run a setup program to calibrate the crossover and gain on the sub to match your system and room, and it is supposed to work very well.

 

Personally I would just accquire a pair of floorstanders that worked correct in the room instead of patching over a problem with a band aid, just my 2p worth

 

Peter (Ditton).... I rather tend to agree with WMs plain speaking here.... remember those Living Voices....

 

Dependeing how much you're after a real extension to bass range, and how much you want an overall fuller sound, I might be inclined to look at a change of amp. I don't know the 8000S but am familiar with several other Audiolab amps and they definitely tend towards the leaner presentation.

 

ipl's mate - you know you want to.
cheers


julian

 

well upgrade on poweramp side has been on cards for a while, with several demos of minor step-ups and a few 'blind-lusts' of major ones. If I accentuate the grip/drive then the jml floor becomes more obvious, so that does take me down the floorstander - but then room (15x15x10) might become an issue ... and I do have this requirement for a sub for 5.1 av purposes.

 

And the trouble with big full range speakers is that placement can be a nightmare - they tend to be large and need a lot of space around them. This is why sub/sat's are so appealling in smallish rooms.

Ditton,

You'll get a lot of conflicting advice about whether subs can work or not - most of the people who run into trouble with subs don't play by the rules, which are:

put the sub in the right place (almost always a corner);

use a crossover for both the sub and sats and use time alignment (and that means using DSP)...

measure the interaction of the speakers using proper tools (inc. calibrated mic);

use EQ to stop over-exciting the room modes.

If you don't play by those rules, or have some a priori philosophical objection, then the you will have to be lucky to integrate a sub properly. Folks who fail with subs usually start out with a "purity" stance and refuse any processing of the main L/R speakers - in spite of the fact that not crossing over small fronts will substantially increase their distortion at higher SPL's.

The big velodynes are excellent - I have a DD15 (which has all the EQ etc). If you know what you're doing you can get similar results with cheaper subs - the paradigm servo 15, is a really good sub, but doesn't have the bells and whistles of the velo so requires external EQ. [I run stereo subs]

 

Andy T,

I would agree on a lot of floorstanders being that way, however a well exeicuted transmission line certainly isn't as fussy on placement and gives far greater room control, coupled with a matching amplification, can really bring home the results even in small rooms

 

i found that even £2000 floorstanders coloured the sound too much due to bigger cabinet size- i'm using my old Mordaunt Short 860s as an example here; and they were supposed to be incredibly uncoloured due to the materials used.

As you've found out Ditton, the 905s really do fall off quite suddenly @ 40hz..nothing to do with your amp chap- my Plinius chucks out 100WPC into the 8ohm load. The Logrhythm is a very good subwoofer and offers loads of flexibility. I run it from the preouts of the Plinius through some fairly high end Black Rhodium phono leads

 

Didn't spot you had the little Velodyne earlier (was posting in a hurry over lunchtime ) - but as others have mentioned I was thinking of the big and rather pricey DD models which several people have raved about on here, with the superb inbuilt processing and equalisation. If you've got that sort of money to spend, then something along those lines would seem to me to be the obvious way to go.

 

I'm with WM on this. I have an REL sub and used it in parallel with my Linns for roughly a year. Ended up disconnecting it from the stereo. Regardless of how I tried to get it setup, it simply never managed to be as cohesive as the bass from my Linns. The issue wasn't even obvious, until I unplugged the sub, after which music gained a whole lot more life with much better timing.

 

Andy T,
is suggesting a full dsp set up, time alignment, individual driver control and room compensation, this will undoubtly help without question, still yet to here a set up like that convince me, and I've have a few buddies in the recording game who toy with all thise stuff, it does come close however I'll pass until such a time it becomes Right, but worth an earwig most certainly.
me I'll stick with a twist on traditional methods. Wm

 

Ditton,
What are all these functions that the Meridian 561 supposed to be able to do? I don't have a Meridian processor or controller as they call it. However, reading their website they have some kind of Bass Management. http://www.meridian-audio.com/p_561.htm
Are these not flexible enough for your requirement?

WM, How close to the back wall are those speakers of yours need? It could be my imagination but having small monitors that is bass lite, allow the front speakers to be place close against the front wall in a normal living room than supporting the lower end with a sub to fill the (large) gap. Heh, it is an alternative solution although as you point out not any simpler but more flexibility for upgraditis.

One more observation in general. It seems that is a trend some manufacturers are trying to built a full range loudspeakers with adding active subwoofers, I am thinking of Linn Komri or even these interesting Vifa Reference series loudspeakers. http://www.audioholics.com/ces/CESspeakers/VifaReference51speakers.php
However, it just make me wonder what was the problem(s) with a full range active loudspeakers in the past? How come these never really that popular outside recording studios? Anyone?

 

The 561 is indeed a flexible friend, and thanks for making me think it through again.

I could operate a 2.1 , taking the digital from the cd transport and putting the .1 to the sub (at whatever cut-off) and the 2 either direct to amp and hence standmount speakers, or (preferred) in digital, via decode by the Dax Decade.

However

1. The transport has been modded by AS to have Ncode which greatly enhances ('elimination' of jitter with better timing) the connection to the Dax Decade.

2. room layout
I have imposed some restrictions on myself for reasons of kit placement in what is shared living room: the TV (used as AV display) is in one corner and the hifi gear is in an opposite corner, tucked away, with main speakers either side of fireplace on opposite wall to TV. Its not just WAF, but its generally more pleasing to the eye and conducive to listening & chatting about a fire; the option to move the hifi kit to be by the TV, under which the 561 sits, would involve placing it either in front of a radiator or under a bay window (thru which the afternoon sun does shine). Alternatively, I could have lots of long interconnect runs.

So, I could simplify: most obviously by selling the Dax Decade and using the Meridian as dac, but that would be to downgrade the music. At present, the role of the 561 is to take digital from DVD & Sky+, and do the 5.1, with 3.1 out in analogue and the rear 2 out as digital, to the Dax, so that I can use the hifi standmounts as rear effect speakers.

Now that above may read like the ramblings of a madman ...