Upgrading my Valve pre amp

Thinking about upgrading my Croft line stage ( which was built as a one off for me) as much for a change as for any other reason.

The short list is (second hand):

Audible Illusions Modulus 3a. (heard good things about this and just missed one for £700)

ARC SP10 or 11 (always wanted one)

Or Audionote.

The unit must be valve and be capable of driving two solid state poweramps through a three metre interconnect.

Has anyone any experience of the above or any other competitors?

Thanks for your input boys

Best...

Darren

 

Im not familiar with those particular models (other than what I have read).

I can reccomend some valve pres I have heard if you like, but that might not be what you want?

 

Yes please Bottleneck,

Your experience is valuable... say on



Darren

 

Darren,

I haven't heard any ARC pre-amps but if they sound anything like the integrated amp I have, then I would say go for it!

If you are interested in ARC poroducts, this website may be of interest.

http://www.arcdb.ws/

Cheers, Robbo

 

Darren,
Best valve pre upto £3k I've heard, I even bought one (Curtesy of Lilolee Advice)http://www.transcendentsound.com/preamp kit.htm

 

It's many years since I heard these but the ARC SP 11 is best avoided, I think, it sounds much thinner than an SP 10 and a bit compressed.

The SP 10 is old-scholl valve: big, bold and beautiful, but maybe a bit loose in the bass compared to more modern offerings. Lots of tweaks and mods available, though. I'm told it makes a very good base for modding.

 

Many thanks to everyone for their input.

Robbo: What a great ARC site - was trying to find something like this
as ARC's site only features new stuff - good on you. Great build is something that attracts me here.


wadia-miester: Ah... I have seen this item in Hi Fi World. Looks good: I bet your's is tweeked to death though - you lucky, skilled sod.

Fox: The M2 sounds great but you don't often see them around. I only need line inputs as Ben Duncan built a great phono stage for me. really do need the ability to drive 3m cables (bi amped set up).

Best regards to All.


Darren

 

Marcus:

"...big, bold and beautiful..."

You are a poet Sir. My mouth waters....


Darren

 

Hi Darren.

Apart from the kit that WM has mentioned, two others come highly reccomended.

These are the MINIMAX (available from definitive audio in nottingham amongst other places) and the CONSONANCE BASIE (available in kit form/built) from DIY HIFI SUPPLY.

Both of these kits have a choke input power supply (like in border patrol amps) have a simple circuit, and are hard wired.

I use the Basie myself, which has had most of its innards replaced with top-drawer bits and bobs.

I know someone who would make the kit for you, including really great bits like mine (silver wiring, oscons, audionote caps, kiwame ceramic resistors etc) you would be talking about around 700 built up.

Frankly, I havent heard better valve pre-amps than the minimax and the basie. Im sure there are some, and my listening isnt exhaustive!

PM me if you want more info.

NB
On the passive side, you might want to try a transformer based passive, like that by Bent audio, or the 'music first' passive pre. The emporium has the latter in second hand, you could PM michaelab for details about the first, Im sure he wouldnt mind..

 

Darren,
No I didn't do a WM on it, just a couple of basic psu mods, its very good it stock form REALLY, It's transparent, clean, invovling and dynamic, plus big, bold & controlled bass

 

I didn't know the basie was choke input.

not heard of the definitive, could you enlighten me bottle?

also try the ear 834l, great line pre, almost transparent. I couldn't tell between it and a passive which is saying something, plenty of gain, too. better in that respect than audio innovations or sjs arcadia, tho they were not unattractive.

I think its only one ouput, but you can get a phono 1-2 splitter from radio shack for £1.

I have a bottlehead foreplay on the way, meant to be good. $150 from the states, got to build myself but meant to be good, got to get a 230-110 wall wart, too.

follow your dreams and get an arc if you want one.

I know of someone who is selling a basie, pm me if interested, not me...

 

Many Thanks to everyone who has contributed. Isn't ZeroGain a really great resource?

bottleneck: The basie sounds good. I think (!?) that the need to drive two solid state power amps rules out a passive pre. But those transformer coupled ones are fascinating aren't they?

wadia-miester: It's good to know that the stock GG pre amp sounds so good. But how could I rest knowing yours sound better?

Data: Say, when do I get to come round and hear your system? That CD player of yours is to die for.

Overall I now cannot make my mind up....


Cheers Guys!


Darren

 

Hi Darren.

I dont know if driving two power amps would rule out a passive, although I cant see why?

The basie is great and has 2 outputs, so you can run 2 amps or an amp and a sub from the second pre-out.

Main thing to be careful of when buying a second hand one is that its construction is excellent. You wouldnt want to buy a bodgit of course.

The one definitive do is called a 'MINIMAX' I cant remember the rest of it. Its also choke input, similar setup to a Basie. Definitive do a modded version of it for about 1,200. This price difference is why I went for a Basie.

Havent heard WM's pre, but Lilolee rates it, and so does WM so its got to be worth a look.

I personally havent had much joy with ARC / CJ pre's. The models Ive tried (only about 2 by each manufacturer) have sounded a bit thick and clarty.. maybe the model you were thinking of would be different, I dont know.

Chris

 

Darren, you can sure rest easy my TT owning friend, I don't have it any more, although very good, just not for me, still the good fellow who purchased it, got him self a bargin, the nice chap had an insane grin on his face when I left, muttering something about 'Sudden realised what he'd been missing all these years

 

i am a proud owner of the minimax. it is actually made by a company called eastern electric, based in hong kong and manufactured across the border in china.

it isn't a kit, the build quality is fantastic, so there is no chance of buyin a "bodgit"... really surprisingly well put together. puts many much higher cost items to shame. in fact it feels at least as well put together as my wadia.

the sound is fantastic and responds well to tube rolling. i've found in my system that a rca "cleartop" and a brimar 12au7's are magic. (the tubes do not need to be matched as one is a buffer stage and the other the gain)

it also has two outputs, if that is one of your requirements...

definitive do do a moded version..., but at 1200, i think it might be a little steep. especially when, from what i understand, they have just replaced a few caps.

if you speak to the distributor in germany:

http://www.minimax-audio.com/

he will sell you one for €700, about £460 (this included the postage costs). i have seen them advertised second hand in this country for more... relatively low risk if you want to give it a go!

heinz, the distributor is a really nice guy, and actually even included a spare set of tubes to let me immediately start trying the effects of tube rolling.

the manufactures website is here:

http://www.eeaudio.com/

and provides more info as well as their own web forum, which provides various customers expreience on their prefered tubes....

 

Hi Darren,

Some good suggestions here.

I don't know much about the Audio Illusions pre so I can't comment too much on it.

ARC are well built items. Do try & get to hear one in your system as some are not to everyones tastes. I have tried a few & they did impact their "voice" on the sound.

I agree with Fox about the Audionote M2. A fine sounding pre amp. Good for tweaking as their is plenty of room inside the case & things are easy to get to. Early ones have their input sockets on the side of the case. I would be tempted by one of these. I have one of these somewhere.

One of my favourites is the SJS Electroacoustics Arcadia Model 1. This is a choke input power supply job. Very good sounding. I prefer this to the Audionote M2. It has a more top to bottom consistant sound. The bass has less bloom & more tightness. Good clarity & detail. Can be tweaked up to give a better performance but getting at some of the circuit is a pain. I rate this better than most pre amp I have heard. These are quite rare.


The EAR 834l is one to look at. I haven't had one in my system. I have heard the EAR 864 which the line stages are said to be the same as the 834l. This was a excellent pre amp.

The Transcendent sound Ground Grid sounds like a very good buy. It's had a lot of good press & is quite cheap. You can get it as a kit or ready built. I would mind having a bash at the kit.

The Basis pre looks quite good again. This is excellent value for money & again is tweakable. It is cheap enough to have a gamble with. I'm not sure if it is choke input. I think is capacitor input with a choke filter.

The Minimax is a pre that has been getting very good write ups and is quite cheap from sources abroad. The case look cramped so on board tweaking my be tricky. This could be a choke input design. A good tweak for this & other pres would be to fit a stand alone choke input supply.

Another to look at is tweaking your Croft. Which Croft is it BTW? What was done to it? Again adding a choke input supply may do the trick. Also changing the volume controls will give you more resolution & detail. I have used a few Crofts over the years & I had a Vitale in my collection. Excellent value for money. I do know the better Crofts have beefier power supplies.

As for passive, they can be hit or miss. I have made a few & the quality does improve depending on what you use. I prefer stepped attenuators. Also it depends on the impedence of the input of the amp & the cable uesdWorth a try. At the moment, I'm in the process of building a Transformer passive pre as these have had some good ratings.


SCIDB

 

Not sure about that myself, due to lack of technical knowledge. Im pretty sure its choke power supply (in fact I was really sure).. but I could be wrong. Theres lots of BASIE info at www.diyhifisupply.com

The price on the minimax from abroad sounds very good for a pre-built pre of that standard.

 

Hey SCIDB,

Thanks for your suggestions. My Croft is a sraight line stage using a pair of NOS 3691, Silver wire and the Croft "Transcap". The pre is unity gain ( which suits my system). Sadly the power supply is not valve regulated. i don't have any specific complaints about the Croft - far from it. However one is always seeking more. Certainly having the Croft Modded is an option I had considered, but , wondered if the cost might well approach that of an upgrade to another superior pre amp. Where should the tweaking begin do you think?

Bottleneck,

The Basie looks great but I notice a bewildering range of options on their web page - are any of them worthwhile? Or did you order just the basics and have the unit tweaked as you mentioned?

What transport option did you purchase? Have you had the stepped attenuator fitted?

Cheers Guys

 

I think the basie will be capacitor input, with a choke after it.
Its very easy to change to 'virtual' choke, you just put a 0.3-1uf cap at the input of the choke, and you get very near choke input, without the nasties.
If you don't want to build, I think there is a person still selling.

 

Hi.

I bought my Basie from someone on here who had bought the kit and never built it. I had it re-built (after cocking a few bits up) and later had parts changed by my local guru.

There are certainly some parts Id get with the kit if you are looking at getting one. These would include the dect stepped attenuator, silver cable, kiwame resistors, and I'd pay more and go for audionote caps.. oh, and better valves too..

particularly shite was the cast-copper wire (which would NOT solder for love nor money, the cheap black capacitors and the god-awful free valves.

In fact, if you got all those upgrades, there wouldnt be much left to modify! - whether thats better than getting someone else to choose the choices for modification is a good question. Personally, I trust my local guru, and left it to him to great results.

Im eventually going to get some masive audionote paper/oil output caps in there the size of baby-coke-cans (they cost about 90 quid each!!), just as a kind of chava-styleee OTTness, basically for a laugh. Im sure it'll help the sound too.

I dont know how much datas mate wants for his, but if its cheap enough you could always get it and then get it modded, no matter what options he went for himself. The point-to-point wiring and the large chasis make modifications pretty easy in the unit.

I wouldnt discount others reccomendations though, a built up minimax for 400 ish, or an Arcadia (I trust SCIDB's advice and use it myself!), or the one WM mentions Im sure are all worth a look too, as the others probably are aswell.

Dont know if that helps?

Chris