What kit do you use -esoteric, or mainstream?

[Johns Naim]

It struck my poor financially deprived mind the other day, that either I have less disposable income to throw at the world of HiFi, especially as it now very much encompasses (for me at least) the world of HT as well as 2 channel, OR specialist products just continue to become more and more expensive, seemingly month by month.

Whilst the mainstream, and by that I infer brands such as Rotel, Sony, Yamaha, Denon, etc - i.e. products put out by large electronic corporations seem to offer better and better products for realistic/affordable by most prices, it would appear the smaller scale specialist, mostly of UK manufacturing base, such as Arcam, Naim, Linn, Meridian etc, go further and further up-market, as they tweak and refine other manufacturers designs, and sell it on at four and five times the cost.

Once upon a time the specialist product was affordable by the 'average' earning enthusiast, whereas these days all but their entry level products are out of reach for most except the very well heeled, or the middle aged obssesives who realistically are probably past their best as far as hearing is concerned anyway, but otherwise have the dosh to go with what is perceived to be the 'best'

But unless you have sufficient income to comfortably afford these specialist items, or are so mesmerised by the brand name, notions of prestige and being the 'best' etc, OR feel the often small differences/improvements are worth paying/saving/selling ones body on teh street for, they appear to offer quite poor VFM these days, in the context of the overall market place; the very good level of performance on offer from the mainstream, often for many thousands less, AND that it appears most of these specialist brands have abandoned to a large degree their enthusiast base, instead going for the upper market snob sell/prestige approach. After all, it is a business, and one has to market it in a certain way to succeed, however as not all of us have bottomless pits of money, what sort of kit do you favour?

Is the mainstream 'good' enough for you, or do you/must have that slight edge of performance from the specialist, and if so, do you think it's worth the asking price(s)? over the mainstream product?

Please discuss....

Cheers

John...

:MILD:

 

[oedipus]

Is the mainstream 'good' enough for you, or do you/must have that slight edge of performance from the specialist, and if so, do you think it's worth the asking price(s)? over the mainstream product?

I've got a fairly pricey setup, so please feel free to think I'm a hypocrite. I figure for $5K you can put together a 5.1 system that is pretty much state of the art, after that you'd better have (or pay someone with) a real understanding of acoustics and the freedom to dedicate and acoustically treat a room. For instance: the Denon receivers (3805 etc) are absolute steals, paradigm have a sub for $1500 which is outstanding and Paradigm speakers are really bloody good, and quite cheap! Moreover, the denon receivers have "room correction for idiots".

As for there being an edge in performance of the specialist brands (naim/linn etc) forget it! When it comes to CD playback, if there are sonic differences in highend gear then it is inferior performance - Sony and Denon make measurably perfect CD players.

And it's the same with amplifiers - unless you have some god awful load, you'll never need monster amp costing more than $500/channel.

Expensive wire and stands are for the clueless who have more money than sense.

About the only place you can really justify spending large amounts of cash is on speakers: lovely big speakers, with sub woofers - providing you've got the room to put them in..

 

[wolfgang]

Maybe your ears have changed. They have become more conscious to the difference between adequate and outstanding. If the prices of the new toys are too high, there is always the secondhand market. What is more important for you a stack of new branded toys or one that you have selected based on your critical ears? The 4 UK based manufacturers you mentioned did started their business offering good value separates but have indeed broadened their range from the reasonable to statement product. Some claim the price have been pushed higher in part due to the many royalties that manufacturers have to buy esp in the field of AV like THX, Dolby, DTS and their newer versions. The focus now seems to be in DVD based and convergent of the computer and audiovisual toys and thus diminishing the demand for pure stereo separates making the option of high volume marketing of these stereo only toys less viable.

 

[PeteH]

There's a strangely deafening silence in this thread somehow

 

[Johns Naim]

There's a strangely deafening silence in this thread somehow

Heheh, there is, isn't there...

Wolfgang said:

Maybe your ears have changed. They have become more conscious to the difference between adequate and outstanding. If the prices of the new toys are too high, there is always the secondhand market.

I think my ears have changed, as no doubt my hearing is not as good/acute as it was in my twenties. On the other hand many years of experience has taught me the finer points of listening re assessing gear, and I Personally think the gap between the merely 'adequate' and the 'outstanding' is narrowing all the time.

Here in AUS, finding second hand gear of the likes of Naim, Linn, Meridian etc, is not impossible, but you could be waiting a very long time indeed for something to turn up that was of interest.

For example, here in Victoria, a state of 4 million odd people, there is but ONE Naim retailer.

The problem is mostly cost - Naim for instance is all sold on a built to order basis and air-freighted across - which along with the exchange rates makes it and indeed most UK manufactured goods exorbitantly expensive as compared to the competition, and especially as against the relative prices in the home (UK) market.

For instance, being close to Asia, and now with a free trade agreement in place with the US, items such as Denon, Sony, Yamaha etc, which are either close to, or even more expensive than say their Arcam, Naim, Linn etc competitors in the UK, are many thousands cheaper relatively speaking to the UK product by the time it reaches here.

I take the point about 2 channel, and would not now invest in it if I was starting again, as the niche for it ever diminishes, and the prices seem to be going the way of the Swiss watch market - Rolex, not swatch.

Personally, I do think they offer and edge in sound quality, but again, either my ears are going off, or the differences are becomming smaller between the mainstream and the specialist, whilst the prices are anything but.

So although the situation here in AUS is somewhat difficult for UK sourced goods, I thought the performance differences, and the cost differences would still apply to some degree, and hence was interested to start a discussion as regards others opinions re:

"Is the mainstream 'good' enough for you, or do you/must have that slight edge of performance from the specialist, and if so, do you think it's worth the asking price(s)? over the mainstream product?"

Hopefully the silence will not remain too deafening...

Best Regards

John...
:MILD:

 

[Saab]

As for there being an edge in performance of the specialist brands (naim/linn etc) forget it! When it comes to CD playback, if there are sonic differences in highend gear then it is inferior performance - Sony and Denon make measurably perfect CD players

Pete,thats why there is a deafening silence,we don't want to start another boring row about these so called wonder machines

 

[wolfgang]

Still recovering from a bruising encounter from a long debate with some lovely friends. I am indeed a bit apprehensive as how to proceed. Here goes.

If the prices for UK made products are so much more since they have move up market then there are more reason to look at other branded toys. Looking from this side of the pond highend Japanese toys appear to never be imported into the UK market as they have always been associated with VFM products. One suspect the market were very small for a Sony or Pioneer CDP anymore then a few hundreds UK pounds in the past if the UK branded like the one you have mentioned have the equal for a lot less as it were. What about all these exciting home grown Chinese made hifi toys in AUS then?

 

[tones]

or the middle aged obssesives who realistically are probably past their best as far as hearing is concerned anyway,

Eh? Wassat? Somebody say something?

 

[TonyL]

Here in AUS, finding second hand gear of the likes of Naim, Linn, Meridian etc, is not impossible, but you could be waiting a very long time indeed for something to turn up that was of interest.

What's the second hand market like for good homegrown kit like Dynavector or Plinius or decent Japanese kit like Accuphase and Luxman? We all buy British gear because there is lots around second hand - I'd be more than happy to run Dynavector or Accuphase but they are very expensive here.

Tony.

 

[titian]

To satisfy my exigences concerning sound quality listening to classical music, I had to go with extreme esoteric units. No other chance.

 

[daytona]

as they tweak and refine other manufacturers designs, and sell it on at four and five times the cost.

or the middle aged obssesives who realistically are probably past their best as far as hearing is concerned anyway, but otherwise have the dosh to go with what is perceived to be the 'best'


Please discuss....

you really want to discuss this? perhaps with your anger management counsellor anyway!

i think this rant says more about your state of mind that the current state of the hifi industry pal. you've never had better value or a greater differential between good and bad choices.
an Arcam cd player still only costs £400
a rega turntable less than £200
epos speakers are £350
rotel amp at £250

if you still aren't getting it can i refer you to www.argos.co.uk for all your future audio requirements.

 

[titian]

Alan: are you angry?

 

[griffo104]

I've yet to hear a Sony cd player/dvd player I could live with - regardless of measuring perfectly.

As for using Home Theatre - great for movies but still lacking when it comes to music replay in 2 channel. My friend has just bought a denon 2805 - after much convincing by me to buy proper HT gear instead of the dodgy horrible sub/sat all in one systems he was looking at. He thinks it is wonderful and the ability to have cd replay in another zone while he plays on his xbox in another room is pure genius.

However listen to 2 channel music through this and in my opinion it is still behind 2 channel only amplifiers by brands such as Arcam.

I recently bought a Denon DVD-2900 impressed as I am with this piece of kit - and I am very impressed - I still prefer cd replay through my Linn mimik. It is rythmically better and has better bass response - of course it can't do movies,sacd or dvd-audio and this where, imo, companies like Denon have the advantage over the likes of Linn. I just cannot afford a Linn Unidisk.

 

[greg]

I've yet to hear a Sony cd player/dvd player I could live with - regardless of measuring perfectly.

Which Sony players have you heard?

 

[penance]

I use the kit that makes the sound i enjoy.
Irespective of name.

 

[wadia-miester]

I've yet to hear ANY piece of kit (regardless of price), do it for me Unmolested and in stock form. but then I'm odd and you all knew that anyway

 

[The Devil]

Yes, but they are (allegedly) even worse after you've had your paws in them.

 

[griffo104]

Which Sony players have you heard?

A few admittedly in friends systems not all in mine - unfortunately I can never remember the models - Sony bring out too many and they have such memorable names.

I do own a Sony DVD/SACD player which I bought for £400 about 3 years ago (so you may be able to deduce the model) and it is currently sitting in the bottom of the wardobe gathering dust having been replaced with the Denon DVD-2900. I have thought about selling it but trying to convince people to buy a dvd player for more than £30 is proving very difficult - and I get fed up with explaining what SACD is - so much for Sony's marketing.

I just find the Sony sound too boring and quite fatiguing - too much treble and not enough bass weight to them - although they do seem detailed. A friend complained about the poor bass his speakers produced - changed his Sony for my Linn cd player and suddenly lots more bass and he was much happier - until I swapped them back.

Although I find this with most Sony audio equipment not just their cd players and I have demoed several of their cd/sacd players - could be just me. I didn't even like the sacd-1 although did have a certain amount of respect and admiration for it.

 

[tones]

I've yet to hear a Sony cd player/dvd player I could live with - regardless of measuring perfectly.

Funny, my first CD player was a Sony 501ES (first generation, 1985). It was just fine - to my ears, it made a splendid noise - and we lived together quite happily until the laser gave out and Sony Schweiz just couldn't get the parts any more.

This, I think, is the major problem with Japanese stuff. Apparently the Japanese change their equipment for the latest thing all the time, so nobody really wants an older model any more. As a result, when they collapse for some reason, the industry has moved on and the bits aren't there any more. A far cry from Quad and Naim, both of whom, I believe, can repair anything they ever made.

 

[domfjbrown]

As for there being an edge in performance of the specialist brands (naim/linn etc) forget it! When it comes to CD playback, if there are sonic differences in highend gear then it is inferior performance - Sony and Denon make measurably perfect CD players.

Are you stuck in the 70s? Do you only do your auditioning with an oscilliscope and a voltmeter?

I use my ears, and that's why, almost since day 1 of owning my first CDP in 1991 (A Sony CDP-M12, a "seperate" part of a midi system) I wanted more. To me, the CDP sounded like a brillo pad (although when we stuck it into Henryt's then-Audiolab/Epos system, it was a little better). If I felt my £150 Pioneer PDS703 was "perfect", I'd not have ditched it for a Rega Planet. Or then moved onto a Naim CD5...

That said, I *do* feel CD replay is a bloody rip off. TO get a sound with the same groove and fun factor as I get from my Rega Planar 3 has cost far more money than the promise of CD had - "perfect sound forever". Christ - even the shoddy turntable on that old Sony midi weed all over CD from a great height!

My tastes (sonically) have definitely changed since 1975 (when I was born) though. In 1985 I thought my Philips Skymaster IV "personal stereo" with Now 5 on tape was the best thing I'd ever heard. Ditto 1987 with my Sanyo twin deck portable. ON and on, and now, I could never go back to listening to a walkman of any type. It's like wine - once you've moved on from the £2.99 Lasky Reisling (sp? my first bottle that got me drunk, 1992, 16 years old) to something around the £5+ mark, you can't go back - even as a non-wine connoisseur such as myself!