What now for Harbeth?

I know it's old news, but the fascinating article on the LS3/5a in this month's HFN by Alan Shaw (no doubt spurred by KK's recent attack on modern day mini monitors) left me thinking.

Given that the Beeb have decided to go with Dynaudio monitors in the future (following DBT of various manufacturers' offerings), are we likely to see the end of the classic BBC monitor? It would be a great shame IMO, but I find it hard to imagine that the few enthusiasts who place sound before aestetics will provide enough business long term to keep the designs alive.

Another interesting observation is that the Beeb picked Dynaudio over the likes of Harbeth and others under DBT conditions ( we are led to believe). I understand that the Air series of monitors have been ordered. Having had a play with the Air 15's last year at home, I have to say that they are very good but not exactly captivating in any way.

So have we seen the back of the classics?

 

Good question. I wish I knew the answer. I wish Alan Shaw did too, but I get the feeling he doesn't...

-- Ian

 

Glad to see the BBC know a good speaker when they hear it

The Air series are active aren't they?

Michael.

 

Yes Michael, the Airs are digital actives with inbuilt DSP and Toccata chips. Somewhat of a departure from the classics. So does this mean that all radio will be monitored digitally or is this already the case?

 

This conflicts totally with the very few comments Alan Shaw has so far made on the Harbeth User Group list. I'm reluctant to do a direct cut and paste as I don't have his permission to use the quote, but his gist is that the BBC decision was to deliberately exclude any A B testing with existing speakers and not to use any live vs. reproduced testing at all (an area Harbeth always do very well at). He describes the situation as being very unscientific (and from Alan that is a real insult), the implication being the choice was made on another basis entirely.

Tony.

 

Tony,

I do see that there was no A B tests from the various manufacturers. According to the Dynaudio press release, ten manufacturers were shortlisted and their products subjected to technical tests and extensive blind listening tests carried out using an acoustically transparent curtain.

It does seem that these tests were not used to compare the various manufacturers' products head to head which seems strange, and having listened to both the Air 15's and the Super HL5 recently , I know which one I would rather listen to. But I guess that was not the criteria in this instance.

I do fear for the smaller manufacturers though. How can they develop the type of digital monitors that seem to be destined to become the staple diet of the recording and broadcast industry? It seems Alan is rather peeved by the whole thing - his critique of the LS3/5a and it's quality issues seems timed rather well.

 

Even a brand as large as Dynaudio has had to partner up with another company (TC Electronics), so small volume producers such as Harbeth will obviously have trouble to compete. If the BBC requirement was for a digital active speaker that pretty much rules Harbeth out from the start, it just isn't what they do. A real shame – I've heard a lot of passive Dynaudios of both the domestic and pro ranges, and none I would swap for my C7s!

I don't think this will effect Harbeth that much though - the BBC thing was a superb way to establish the brand and gain a global brand credibility, but that is done now and I suspect it amounts to a comparatively small volume of global sales. I believe most speakers are exported, so the global Harbeth customer will not be deterred by this news. If you want a speaker like a P3, C7, HL5 or any of the Monitor range there is next to nothing remotely similar out there. Harbeth have that market sewn up, a hi-tech digital Dynaudio sure ain't going to appeal to that customer base.

The sadly ironic thing is that I suspect he could make a fortune out of making LS3/5As again - a Harbeth badged 3/5A would sell like hot cakes in today's market, especially if he made the 15 Ohm ones that he hates!

Tony.

 

Tony,

did you get a chance to read the article in this month's HFN?

 

No, the buggers shrink wrapped it this month so I couldn't read it in WH Smiths!

I think most of the LS3/5A article has been covered (and more) on the Harbeth User Group – some very interesting points coming out there at the moment from both Alan and a few LS3/5A fans.

I've got mixed feeling towards LS3/5a, I really like the things, but think there are other speakers way more deserving of the cult status. The LS3/5A is a great speaker, but seeing them change hands for 3 or 4 times more than say Spendor BC1s or Rogers Studio 1s is insane, both the latter are IMHO far better and more upmarket speakers with exactly the same pedigree / history, yet both seem strangely ignored.

Tony.

 

Interesting Tony,

I tend to agree about the LS3/5a - I can see the attraction but having owned both the Studio 1 & the LS7 back in the eighties, both were very rewarding speakers (although the treble was a little hot on the LS7 IMO).

I hope Alan is able to put his mind to creating modern equivalents of the classics in maybe more aestetically pleasing cabinets. The new speakers at the show were a major disappointment.

 

BBC Radio and Music have chosen Dynaudio, not BBC TV. Harbeth is used extensively for TV work. This purchase may impact PMC / ATC more than Alan.
You have to wonder if the process was not "skewed" by agendas that may not have been strictly technical, too. It is hard to take seriously a "process" in which no direct, blind comparisons between different manufacturers are undertaken.
It is also interesting that no long-term suitability testing seems to have been done.
I wouldn't be surprised if Harbeth is gradually "reintegrated" into this market.

 

Please go onto the user group and tell Alan that. He needs useful, critical feedback far more than the fawning REG crap that is usually posted on there.

Joel -- ex-user group member.

 

The NRG range is IMHO a bit of a strange move (to put it mildly), and aesthetically they certainly don't work for me at all.

I left Heathrow this year convinced that the majority of items on show will be totally unsellable second hand in a few years time as they will look so painfully and absurdly dated. All the sculptured metallic painted speakers currently on show will look utterly ridiculous when they don't fit with design tastes anymore, yet something like a Compact 7 will still look like a nicely proportioned, nicely veneered and well constructed loudspeaker – it will never age, it is timeless, it could have been made at any time from the 1950s to now. Form dictated by function, an honest design that attempts to be nothing other than what it is, makes no concession to fashion, and that is all too rare these days. I am convinced that Harbeth will do fine if they stick at what they are good at, but I suspect there is a minefield either side of that path.

Tony.

 

The NRG range does have a bit of a 'Panic into the AV arena' feel about them. Can't say I was able to give them too long a listen as the first time they couldn't get the amp to work properly and the second they just didn't do anything worth mentioning.

As for modern 15 ohm versions of LS3/5A. They can't KEF have started to make modern equivalent versions of the B110 unit, but only suitable as 11 ohm. Stirling Broadcast are making LS3/5A units now and the word is that they sound about as good as the best.

 

From memory according to Graham, who contributes a lot in the good old TMA forum, insinuate the main criteria they use in BBC that time was to establish a single supplier with a range of speakers that sound most similar to each other. They wanted a range of speakers to use in different situations having an identical sound for monitoring work. The listeners did compare speakers by blind listening but they are not asked to select the most accurate or best sounding monitor.

The article in HFN on the LS3/5A does provide a new understanding what that infamous beast is all about. It raises again that old question of what is the real definition 'hifi'?

 

If I understand the posts above correctly, the "blind" testing seems to have been done to speakers from the same manufacturer.
I guess this was to ensure consistency across the speaker range, and not, as you say, to ensure they get the best speaker.
These are not details it is easy to understand from the Dynaudio website

Yes, I agree.

 

You'd be surprised how many different types of speakers the beeb use..
In the old days it was LS3/5as for low level work and either LS5/9 or LS5/8 for dubbing and higher level editing (or even ancient 60s Kefs)..
Now that the beeb is effectively split up, you'll see Post Production sound dubbing use mainly Harbeth Monitor 40s, POst Prod editing a mixture of LS3/5as, Genelecs and assorted "pro" monitors - often passive and powered by ancient H&H 25w power amps; and individual programmes hiring in any old kit that's available and cheap. Which means that few in the programme-making chain are listening to the same thing!
Which is why you can often tell that tv sound quality has taken a nose-dive, what with it being almost entirely cost driven..