You when things are bad when...........

The deal BM, that would never happen with naim EVER, unless things wern't running terribly smoothly, Julian points outs that for the last 3 years they've been making fair profit, however this, This not the morm, for lot of manufacturers are feeling the pinch, in the US they've had a dramatic drop off in hifi/av sales and naim traditionaly have weathered the storms due to they 'unqiue marketing', so this is virtualy unheard behaviour for them, plus to be a naim dealer there is a strict 'code of hounor' punishable by ...... where prospective dealers are expected to 'sell the souls' for the privilagle of selling their range, and then to offer a no minimum order, just shows how bad things are in certain areas of the audio industry (not all) that is point that was trying to made, not giving them a verbal thwack for going out trying to sell Wm

 

Yup! things are looking bad for the traditional type of hi-fi industry

"The rise of digital music is transforming the way Americans listen to music - with far-reaching consequences for the industry.
Is this the year when we finally say good-bye to the hi-fi? "
"Five years ago, about a quarter of a million hi-fis were sold across America. This year, it will be less than a tenth that number."

Full story at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3227576.stm

Time for us to sell off our hi-fi equipment whilst we still can get a few quid for it and go for Apple's iPod ?!
Perish the thought

 

Absolutely not true IMHO, not even remotely. I'd say the general perception of a £1,000 hifi would be more like most people's view of a £50,000 car, if they're even aware that you can spend £1,000 on hifi. The man in the street aspires to a £200 Sony mini as the pinnacle of hifi excellence (as measured by the number of flashing lights on the front ) but thinks his £99 Aiwa is exactly the same in every respect other than pride-of-ownership.

Most people would aspire to owning a £50,000 car, but hardly anyone would ever even consider owning a £10,000 hifi. I think on forums like this one it's difficult to keep a perspective on just how minority an interest is audio. Bear in mind that even the immediate circle of friends of anyone on this forum is likely to be vastly more aware of all things high fidelity than said man in the street, due to the simple fact that they know someone who is into it.

And FWIW I was a musician and general music lover for years before I got interested in hifi, and I'm only now gradually starting to enjoy music again

 

I for one love having a decent-sounding hi-fi, but choose to limit my budget to no more than £400 per component. My friend has spent more on his Linn system's CABLES than I did on my whole kit. However, between the two of us, he has upgraded his system three times in the last 7 years, I have only replaced one damaged unit. What point am I making? Only that the replacement market seems to be drying up except for the very dedicated. To get the low-end to mid-market consumers (like me) to buy a new piece of kit, makers need to find something new, whizz and indeed, bang, to grab our attention. Seems that that is in home cinema.

I very recently spent some money on a 5.1 speaker package and receiver. That's money I haven't felt like spending on my hi-fi because I can't see there would be that much benefit -- let's say I change my speakers (as I have been considering): it takes a lot of effort to ensure that the speaker-change doesn't precipitate a change to the amp and other pieces in order to get the balance I like. So, my 7ish year old hi-fi continues until it needs replacing.

Sadly, with everyone after the latest technology, I fear for 2 channel. Digital cameras are much the same... I love the image quality I get from my Canon EOS SLRs, and I'm certain an image taken on this old tech is many times better than digital cameras costing even 4x as much. However, the man in street is obsessed with spending £400 on a digital compact which won't give images which are as good as a £100 Olympus mju for example. But there it is -- that's the growing market.

On the positive (short-term) side, it means people who do like SLRs and 2ch hi-fi get great deals on new and especially, used kit. Lap it up while you can and let the early-adopters take the hit on early generation new technology.

FWIW, I think Richer were the masters of getting people into hi-fi and it had as much to do with the service as the prices. The former seems to have died away and they push their own products so hard that you can never be sure you're actually getting a good deal anymore. I still remember the people who walked me through at Richer back in 1991, with fondness. My latest experiences of Richer staff usually coincide with wanting to give someone a damn good thrashing. I even wrote to 'Julian' about it, but never got a response.

P

 

Re: Re: You when things are bad when...........

I'm quite aware that it's not how it works in the hifi industry, or even in many others, but in the abstract it seems very odd to describe as "aggressive marketing" the practice of not charging dealerships to sell your products - the fact that this is such a departure is a reflection of the insular and inward-looking nature of hifi IMHO.

 

Tony, you arn't really making a point here, just another excuse for you to have a dig at naim.

In my industry we have to change constantly, we cannot stay still. The whole of the UK business scene is in the same situation, change is enevitable.

A few years ago companies would have luxury lunches with wine and extra staff and it would all be charged internally, lovely for caterers like me.

Business now is not doing this, they can't afford to waste money in this fashion. They also can't afford to assume that business will come to them.

If naim have decided to break new markets then good for them, mabye Wadia should have done this eh?

I think the trouble with the hif market, is yes it is specialised, but too many companies have come in in recent years in the belief they can fool the public into beliveing they are offering something different something special. I think the public is wising up thanks to the web frankly.

The proliferation of these companies means that eventally those that have failed will be weeded out.

ONe thing is for certain though, there is a market for it. It so easy for us to say that people just go into comet and get stereos. However when I got into hifi at the age of 14 this was all I believed existed, comet and the catalouge. BUt things move on and I always remained interested, and developed.

HiFi is not dead, it just smells funny.

 

even if music mainstream does go solid state / multichannel / whatever there is still going to be a market for high quality retrieval, amplification and transductance of the music itself be it from a central server or from a more traditional single room system.
the biggest problem for the hi-fi industry is getting over OUR (the audiophiles) prejudices and pre/mis-conceptions. a few of which are...
1) mutichannel music means sitting in the middle of the band / orchestra with the instruments whirling about your head.
2) there is something a bit bose-ey, low rent or lifestyle about multichannel or multi-room hi-fi.
3) solid state or hard drive based music is intrinsicly lower quality than cd even if it;s stored at cd's 16/44.1 resolution.
4) digital volume controls compromise quality even if they use more bits than the source sample.
5) wireless transmission of signals must involve a loss of quality.

in my opinion the only thing that is threatened by the current re arrangement of the industry is the traditional pre-amp. i think in the end it's very likely that meridian and to an extent wadia have it right with sources that contain pre amp functionality and active speakers. couple this with wi-fi and a standard method of encoding channel / room allocation information and i believe this is the way things will go over the next 10 years. you'll have a source with it's own volume control a central wi-fi (or equivalent) server that directs channels to individual speakers within your house and active speakers or conventional passive speakers with a wireless reciever module and amp. the big thing is for the hi-fi industry to come up with some standards which of course where it all falls apart given their track record.
cheers


julian

 

Re: Re: Re: You when things are bad when...........

If you read my post and the quote you will find that what I was refering to as 'agressive marketing' is something else altogether and NOT "the practice of not charging dealerships to sell your products ......."

 

I guess Gary if there's one thing to be learnt, its this.

If you act like an arsehole when times are good and tell people to f**K off because you don't need them, they are equally entitled to tell you to F**k off when you come running to them asking for help.

Manufacturers are screwed without dealerships. Most apreciate this. Some have such a lofty opinion of themselves that they fail to see the value of the relationship until it's too late.

Humble pie comes to mind, as does that famous poem "The Lament of the Ailing Tune Nazis"

 

Seriously Merlin do you have an idea of what you are talking about or are all your opinions based soley on what people tell you on these forums?

 

merlin,
or perhaps you have standards that a dealership must meet so that your hard earned reputation isn;t tarnished by a shoddy dealer. don;t forget it's the dealer that the customer mainly deals with.
wasn;t it not so long ago that you didn;t buy something you wanted just because you got short shrift from the dealer / distributor? if i recall you spewed vitrol all over every forum you came across.
i don;t blame naim for selecting their dealerships carefully when hi-fi was a boom industry, now they are opening their doors a tadge wider because they are about to launch a range that will appeal to what now must be called 'entry' level and want to get wider exposure.
if a dealer wants to refuse to sell a range that has a wide appeal (whatever your opinion) and sells well, you want to read something negative about the manufacturer into it. i personally would say that the dealers are being blinkered and short sighted and are putting personal feelings before a profit. now if the industry is in such dire straits with dealers losing money - who's the idiot, the manufacturer for offering their range at no stock cost or the dealer for refusing it?

cheers


julian

 

The points put forward by Julian are well based.

I am not familiar with the marketing strategy of Naim but any company who is worth their salt know the importance of how their product is presented, sold and serviced. This require a 'hands on' approach with dealerships. Particularily so with up market products; high end hi-fi and Mercedes cars for example.

It is not the product that is being sold but a whole package that includes image and pre/after sales service.

But times they are a changing!
The businesses that succeed are the ones that are dynamic and are capable of adapting to the market forces.

 

Julian, allow me to introduce you to the ' key, its the one next to the ; key that you use instead :>)

 

alex,
i've got fat fingers (in fact most of me is fat) and i'm <<<< see i can do it, typing on a tiny laptop keyboard. still if the worst you can do to rebutt my argument is criticise my punctuation then great.
cheers

julian

 

Alex, I think Julian;s just being kind to the environment - the rate at which WM is using up the ' characters we;re in severe danger of hitting a world shortage!

(And Ju - rebut has only a single t (although doubled in the past participle etc), unless you;re implying Alex is just attempting to sit on your argument!)

 

If I've offended you somehow, apologies, but I'm not quite sure why. What I was referring to was this:

I totally agree with you re. the companies being accustomed to sitting around waiting for orders to come flooding in. I was just making the point that their complacency has got to the point where actually phoning up clients and trying to sell products counts as avant-garde marketing. Which is what you were saying too AFAICT

 

Pete! looks like we both misunderstood the quotes!
easily done with these short messages.

:buddies:

 

Wadis Meister,

I know from past experience that you have a pathological hatred of us (Naim Audio) from other threads on other forums, but your latest "exclusive" goes beyond even the bounds of your previous inanities.

I would invite you to substantiate your claims or unequivocably retract them or face the consequences.

We at Naim have a very strict criterion for appointing franchised dealers based on Demonstration facilities/ Training / Customer Service / Installation etc etc and to suggest that we are willing to offer the franchise to all and sundry is ridiculous.

We are in the best shape we have ever been in terms of sales and products and for a respected audio discussion site like zerogain to give a platform to wadiameister to spout his vitriol does them no credit.

Earlier this year I invited wadiameister to our room at the Heathrow show to have a chat and so that I could put a face to the name, despite the fact that he visited the room he did not introduce himself !! I will leave the rest of you to work out why.


Best regards,


Paul.

 

Oooh nice one! And welcome to the forum Paul

I can't see anything untoward here. Are you saying that you're not recruiting additional dealerships as WM has suggested? If so then I can understand your reaction.

But if you are, where's the harm in reporting it, and why would you expand your dealer base at a time when you are so successful. Surely that would impinge on the profitability of your existing base?

I think you will find that WM's dislike of your company is shared by a few others, who find your policies somewhat repugnant and unjustifiable. Now if you could possibly justify the £7050 charged for the "privelage" of owning one of your CDS3's then that might start to win a few of us (that were not born of Flossy) over

 

Welcome to the forum Paul. It's customary for people "in the business" to declare their interest in their signature allthough I admit that's not stated as a rule or requirement anywhere.

I would take issue with you calling WM's comments "vitriol" directed at Naim. First of all, I haven't looked back on this thread and read it again in detail but I don't believe anyone has specifically said that the company that WM is talking about is Naim allthough it has been implied. Secondly, I don't see anything particularly vitriolic in what has been said.

WM is a respected member of this forum and those (like myself) who know him know to take a lot of what he says with tongue firmly in cheek

You will note my post early on in the thread letting members know that if they are to post a direct statement such as "company X are in financial trouble" that they back it up credibly. So far I don't believe any such statement has been made.

I'm glad you were able to join the forum and happy to hear that Naim are in good health

Regards,
Michael.