18 watts valve and 87db ?

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OldSkoOL

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I want to buy my first valve amp and see how i get on with it.

Don't want to spend a lot in case i dont like it long term.

Was thinking of the fatman 182 valve amp rated at 18watts. Tubes used: KT94 (KT88,KT90,KT100) x 2, 6N3(5670) x 4, 6E2(EM87) x 1


My speakers are spendor s5e - which they say they are highly efficient and easy to drive, but rated at 87db.

I used the SPL calculator : http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

My max dB SPL at listening position is 95.9db.


I'm getting conflicting advice. Some say i need more power some say it will be ok. I don't listen at very loud volumes. Most of it is at night time with new baby directly above so imagine that. At weekend it will get cranked up to medium / or loud volumes but never quite concert loud.

The 182 is only £430 which is a cheap introduction to valve so i'm looking to get away with getting it. I've seen people use 3/4 watt amps on youtube. 4 and 8 watt DIY with normal (non horn speakers) and it seems quite loud.

The room it will be in is only about 14ft by 12ft with seating position only 9/10ft from speakers.

Every dealer i've spoken to says the fatman amps sounds gorgeous, warm and smooth. Many say its not ideal with my spendors but is this really true given i don't listen at very loud volumes?

1 really helpful dealer said something similar but then told me when the rep came to demo the original fatman itube rated at 13 watt (it was also a hybrid) they hooked it up to some more efficient spendor 89db s8's. Thats the same or v.similar SPL as 87db and 18 watts. He said it sounded glorious!

Can someone please advise me on this... entry level valve, my speakers, mainly low to moderate volumes with some louder listening sometimes.


Cheers
 
FatMan (Dared)

Hi Oldskool

To answer your question, I would have to say no. You want to listen at low volume levels but get a high quality sound. This will not work as the amp will struggle to give you this effortless quality. If your speakers were 90db + you could achieve this. The Fatman amps are based on and made in China by the company behind Dared. Their amps are quite good but there were only a few stars in the range. The main problem which also tars some of the lower powered FatMan amps is that the output transformers and psu are not good enough. You can get good performance out of low powered amps but the power supply's and Transformers must be fantastic(this is why most good single ended amps are so dear and powerful single ended or push pull are also dear).

To achieve what you want I would suggest looking at the Pure Sound A30, Icon Audio Stereo 40 or any other 30 to 50 watt amp. I have first hand experience with Dared amps, so I am not talking blindly here.

The strange thing here is most people assume that if you don't want to play loud that you can get away with less power but in actual fact its not the case. Systems that play well and sound open and detailed etc at low volume levels tend to be those that have the power to speakers ratio right, usually that is more power than the speakers speck might suggest.

I have tried the Dared amp that the FatMan I Pod dock was based on and yes it was very good(Sins of omission rather than commission) but it still needed a fairly efficient speaker to work well. In my case I tried it with a pair of Coincident Partial Eclipse's. A ridiculous mis match in terms of price of speaker but it sounded very nice indeed. Part of the reason for this was the hybrid nature of the amp. The FatMan is similar but not the same as the Mp7 from Dared, that I tried in this combination.

Valves do things that solid state don't do and vice versa, and while valve power behaves a bit differently a watt is a watt at the end of the day and you need more power than the 10 watts this Fatman amp has to give. I have heard the Dared version and its good but not good enough.

Sorry you will have to spend more. Something S/h or perhaps a stripped down Icon St40. The Pure Sound A 30 is more than this amp but very good indeed IMHO. However I agree with Coops you really need to try these amps in your own set up at home. It is very risky not to do this. No dealer unless he has been to your house with a selection of kit can really offer any certainty or what will work or not. Having been a dealer in the past I have done this in my time and I was always amazed by what worked and what did not( theory and practice are two different things) I would have been a fool to offer certainty and I never did. Only a home loan/demo would confirm things either for good or not. YOU MUST TRY ANYTHING YOU ARE INTERESTED IN, AT HOME, IN YOUR OWN SYSTEM. MISTAKES CAN BE COSTLY.

The quad amps and 57 speakers were designed to work together. This information does not apply here. And the Quad 2 amps power supply and transformers are much better than the Fat Man amp you are asking about.

Regards D Louth 77
 
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Thank you D Louth

I have just found a dealer nearby - i will be picking the amp up tonight to try at home.

You say 10 watts... this one has 18 watts. Would this change your view?

I know i'm pushing it a bit but i'm a bit reluctant to spend a lot of money on valve if i don't like it long term, even though i know icon audio or puresound (2 i have been looking at) will be better. Also the cheaper end of the market gets you imports and amps that aren't mass market. I don't think i'm ready for that yet. Last thing i want is to spend another grand or 2 on valves to end up disliking them aswell.

You must be able to tell... i'm really wanting this little amp to work for me. So many people praise it and its a good price point into the valve world. :)

If i love it i see myself spending a lot more on valves in the very near future. I don't mind spend £400 on this only to use it for even less than a year. I've spent a lot on SS in the past and i will never make the same mistake again. It isn't the sound for me. Last thing i want to do is spend another 1-2k GBP on valves only to end up disliking the sound as-well.
 
Hi Old Skool,
I was in the same position as you a few months back.
Wanting to try valves but on a budget.
I considered the Fatman but decided on the Icon Audio 25 instead.(actually 30W)
Even though my speakers are 90db I reckoned that more power was worth the extra money.
My source is a Squeezebox running through a cambridge DacMagic 1 (original).
I am over the moon with this amp.
Open, controlled and very listenable.
It still find it hard to fathom out how such a smooth sound can contain so much detail,Too long listening to budget ss amps no doubt.
I have spent more time in front of the hifi in the last month than in the last two years.
I know it wont be in the same league as the higher priced stuff but for £500 I think it's outstanding.

Good Luck,

Martin.
 
Thanks Obelix!

With 90db does the icon go v.loud?

I'm concerned about my 87db spendors being too hard to drive.
 
thanks for your advice again

your speakers are a lot more sensitive so mine should hopefully be loud enough.


do you run it in standard mode, by that i mean not the triode mode.... if that makes sense?
 
Try it with a variety of music. It may sound okay on softer stuff but anything with dynamics and a bit of 'get up and go' could sound a bit lifeless. 18watts is enough to 'sound loud', but it will clip when there is anything dynamic. While this won't sound obvious or bad, it will likely sound shut in and flat next to something with more power.

Often something with a lot of power is really the answer to getting a smooth sound as it doesn't clip or have to try very hard. For every 6dB increase in level you need 4x the power. Have you ever tried an amp with something like 200watts a side? Do you need an integrated or can you use a power amp? There are some very good power amps designed for studio use that are affordable. Alesis RA500 for example is superb and £150, but you need a pre-amp too. Small speakers definitely like power, and its not just about going loud, its about sounding clean and effortless at normal levels.
 
Valve amps are all in the output transformers, well that and a good quiet power supply.

I have a ~20w push pull using KT88's. I have used 86dB speakers no problem. Never needed above 11-12 o'clock on a normal preamp dial...
I am now using 91/92dB speakers and had to by-pass the first stage of my amp (dropping about 21dB gain) to have a sensible dB range on my TVC (fed from my Dac). 1st click on the TVC was way to loud!

My amp is a very good one though - all in the power reg supply and the transformers (said that already :) - handles pretty much anything speaker wise at vols I need.
 
The position of the volume control tells very little about how the amp is coping though. Its all changed by the pre-amp gain, power amp input sensitivity etc.. You could be driving the amp near full volume even if the volume control is only a little way around.

The fact is, 18watts will easily clip in to 87dB speakers. You might like the sound, but I'd certainly suggest hearing it side by side with a nice powerful amp. Something with over 100watts.
 
Hi oldskool

The Icon amp is good but not with your speakers(Icon amps are well made with good psu and output transformers), however as I said in my previous post you need more power. I agree with Tenson but a 200 watt valve amp would cost a kings ransom. 200 watts of soild state power will not sound like valves. Whether this is an issue or not will depend on if you prefer solid state to the valve sound( I prefer valves my self). There is some variation in what you can get away with but the power issue will always be that, if you don't have enough you will get caught out.

I think different genres of music willl have some bearing on things as to will the quality of the recording(if its compressed, suffering from loudness), you may think you have enough power but if you play older better recorded material that is more dynamic you will rapidly run out of steam on dynamic peaks or complex music. Now valve amps clip in a more gentle way than solid state amps. Things will go soft and thick, whereas solid state sounds hard and thin and starts to distort in a nasty way and ultimately could damage your amp and speakers. It is actually easier to damage stuff with less power than more power, strange but true.

I think that the Icon 40 is about where you should start. Some dealers do the amp so you may be able to hear it rather than buy direct. I am pretty sure than Mr Shaw, nice guy and all does not offer home loans though there may be a money back deal, if not happy. You would need to ask, I can't remember.

I know some of the Chinese kit looks good but corners have been cut and you do get what you pay for. Free lunches are a rare thing, SORRY. Quality power is also not cheap especially with valves.

If you don't like valves after not liking solid state that doesn't leave you with much to try, Class D (thats another discussion and already been done to death here ZG and on other forums and mags. Not one I want to repeat either). If you get the valve amp speaker interface right, there is a magic here that I can't find with either SS or class D.

I had a power issue myself awhile ago. I bought a Bat pre VK31 se and a Bat vk 55 amp(55 watts,6c33c valves). The amp pre match was not suitable and I ended up swapping my amp for the 65 watt Bat Vk75 amp. That made a massive improvement,no power issues any more. My speakers are Anthony Gallo ref3.1 and require a good kick to go right. I have tried low power say 20 watt valves such as 300b and it sounds okay but to really hear what they can do power is required. One of the big differences between the two Bat amps are the output transformers and power supply( google Bat(Balanced Audio Technology) and you will see what I mean, one amp dwarfs the other).

Good luck and only buy if your sure and happy.

Regards D Louth 77
 
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Some excellent advice there.

I had no idea that such a small change in speaker sensitivity would result in that much difference in required power.
Just out of curiosity, what would be the minimum speaker spec for something like a 10 w valve amp?
Do you get to a point where, say a 93db speaker can be driven comfortably by just about anything or is there a limit to how low (power) you can go?

Martin.
 
Anyone know if the electro-harmonix C6A7 tubes are decent tubes?

I'm looking at a 40 then now but i need to find a second hand one. :)


cheers for the help
 
Hi obelix

Its not quite as simple as that. As has been suggested in other posts in this thread. The quality of power supplys and the output transformer quality can allow a lower powered amp to work better and thus achieve a bit more. However the rule of thumb should be to have as sensitive and efficient a speaker as possible for a low power amp. So a 10 watt amp ideally needs a 93 db + sensitivity and a flat load of 8 ohms or more(quite rare outside of horn speakers, and thats another subject full of issues, lets not start it here).

The more drive units a speaker has the more complex things become. The quality and complexity of the crossover can change how a speaker needs to be driven. Most bass drivers are 4 ohms so its harder to get the specks you need. The bigger the drive units the easier it is to get the air moving and get the sound into the room. Small bookshelf speakers are usually to insensitive to work well with low powered valve amps but there are exceptions. The best results will be had with a simple larger floor standing speaker.(these can however end up being very complicated and needing lots of power too). Hi-fi is a chain and the parts must match and complement each other and not just in terms of tonality but how they relate on a measurement basis.
A bit of common sense works wonders, all aspects must be taken into account. Even if this is all correct then the room will have the final say. It is only though when you put your system into your room that any issues with the room/ speaker interface will show its self. If its a small room don't put a massive multi driver speaker into it, it wont work IMHE. This is another topic full of issues and complexity.

There is really no substitute for trying it and seeing if it works and in your listening room/space at home.

Sorry I got of your question a bit. The lower the power the more sensitivity you need a 2 watt amp needs about 98db or better(you are talking horns). You are getting into pretty obscure stuff here and only the serious Single ended guys will go down this path(it can be very rewarding though. But I feel you are limiting yourself a bit to much on this road, only IMHO). you also need an amp that is very clean and silent. Any noise will be so much more obvious in this type of set up. If you put your ear up to your speakers you can hear a bit of hum. The more sensitive the speaker the more obvious this hum will be, amp must be near silent. Valve amps are usually a bit noisy, so only very good ones can be used. I know some will say the noise is masked by the music but it is still there in the signal path.

Giant Haystacks who posts on this forum is a friend of mine and he has a 5 watt Single ended amp from a company called ECO-FAN, based in New Zealand . Tiny compact(ugly) little amp. Ways a ton(I now know what a crushed car might feel like), very dense, excellent transformers and power supply. This with its 6sn7, 6n7 pre sounded amazing with a pair of Ref 3a Dulcete speakers I had in a tiny upstairs room second system(one of those exceptions to the rule). The sound quality sheer purity of this sound put my bigger kit to shame infact when I told my friend about it I could only say that he had ruined me. However this set up just didn't quite have the power and head room I the Dulcetes needed.

Oldskool I think those are quite good but if you want a good chat about valves ring Ian Large at alium Audio. Hes a good guy I know him well and he deals in New old stock valves and modern ones as well. He can give you advice better than I can on this subject. They also sell Opera Consonance valve amps but they are dearer than what you want to spend. Or you could send a PM to Giant haystacks and ask him. Hes a very modest guy but he knows a lot about valves makes and types.

Regards D Louth 77
 
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Thanks D Louth

D Louth,
Thanks for your valuable and informative posts.
There's a lot more to this hifi malarkey than meets the eye.
I'm hoping to go for a new pair of speakers after crimbo so all this is valuable information.

OldSkool,
Sorry for deviating from your original post but it's just so interesting.
I'll leave you to it.

Best wishes,

Martin
.
 
Hi obelix

You are more than welcome. However there are guys like Giant Haystacks who know a lot more than me.

Regards D Louth 77:)
 
Hi Oldskool

If you live near milton keynes I can help you out if you need.

I have valve amps at various prices (when new) and speakers of various sensitivities.

I'm not a shop and dont have any amps for sale.

If you're miles away I'd reccomend borrowing a few valve amps from a good shop at various prices and watts.
 

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