A Pilgrim's Progress: watt amplification for the Dax

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi and General Audio' started by ditton, Oct 24, 2004.

  1. ditton

    ditton happy old soul

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    Over the past three/four years I have moved from combo of Yamaha CD and AVreceiver into Celestion Ditton 15s, up through excursion into Arcam & Meridian CD combos and AudioLab 8000a, to reach my present set-up of AS transport/DaxDecade into AudioLab 8000S switched to poweramp mode, delivering 60W per channel control of JMLab Electra 905s, using AS's own BlueSilver interconnects and Nordost bi-Flatline speaker cable.

    'you have travelled far, young master', he kids himself, at least wrt age.

    The addition of the Black Gates to the Dax Decade, both dac and digital volume control, has rounded the sound - more organic as someone might say. A good £200+ of upgrade. The addition of the Ncode ('jitter free') option to the transport has provided a further improvement in definition in each note & chord, and was an excellent way to spend £50. I am now happy with that bit.

    Thanks to ideas on earlier 'power amp recommendation pl' thread, I've been doing some demo'ing and some pondering.

    1. I know I've not yet got there with the 8000S but since it really is clean and lets the dax so the driving, 'twas £300 s/h and is versatile, its a hard act to beat.

    2. Demo experience with Sugden A21, before I had upgraded the source, told me that there was more to be had. Use of more powerful amps does suggest that JMLabs benefit from some better control.

    3. MF 308 was pacier, with more driven bass but with tendency to boom on spoken voice.

    4. The active ATC 20s were awesome, and I was tempted to go that route, and maybe thats just a matter of time - and whether I can really put those in a shared living room - have a marble facia perhaps.

    5. The Graaf 5050 valve power amp took control but the difference over the 8000S was not night and day imo.

    6. The PS Audio HCA-2 is doing very nicely, and I now need to go listen some more before commenting. It seems to maintain the definition and the pace without adding anything of its own. Its also made me read more about the Digital Amps that Julian and Isaac suggested. And I now understand more about the different use of 'digital' to the d2a converter argument. I might even risk doing the first draft of that Noddy Guide!! And the result of using a digital amp is good so far, and it aint hot.

    7. I had checked out two integrates earlier the Krell 330i and the Sim Audio I-3, and have been recommended the I-5 more than once. These have the switchable poweramp mode (as per AudioLab 8000S) but are more money because of the versatility of having pre-amp options for other sources. Anyone heard a HCA-2 up against an I-5?

    8. Keep on trucking ...
     
    ditton, Oct 24, 2004
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  2. ditton

    Lt Cdr Data om

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    I may have said b4, but the natural choice would appear to be...

    AS power amp
    sirius power amp..

    didn't the mf sound boring? :)
     
    Lt Cdr Data, Oct 24, 2004
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  3. ditton

    bottleneck talks a load of rubbish

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    It sounds like you need more power, whether you want valve, digital or solid state.
     
    bottleneck, Oct 24, 2004
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  4. ditton

    ditton happy old soul

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    The MF amp added drive on the bass and greater control from its extra omph but no, it didn't add excitement.

    I suppose that I really ought to try the AS power amp. Have you heard it in competition with another power amp with the Dax Decade? I've not had it strongly recommended by some of the other Decade owners, the reverse in fact. I'll check out the sirius.

    But yes, it looks as though more power would mean more grip. just as long as it doesn't behave with over muscular swagger!

    Just been doing some a/b between the AudioLab 8000S and the PS Audio HCA-2. Not a lot on the tone front, both let the source play through well defined. The difference is that the 150W in PS Audio has that added control that allows a greater sense of spacing between the notes.

    This has prompted me to try toeing in the speakers to good effect on staging; too much and it blurs, but just enough and the 3D effect is there to be imagined.

    Noddy's Tip on digital amps: don't think of it as turning the bits into and out of digital/analogue; think of it as control over the bursts of energy, at such a rate of switching that it has no effect on the signal, just the pushmepullyou of those cones. Noddy now awaits correction from Big Ears ...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 24, 2004
    ditton, Oct 24, 2004
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  5. ditton

    ditton happy old soul

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    I need a bit of help getting info on this Sirius ...
     
    ditton, Oct 24, 2004
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  6. ditton

    Lt Cdr Data om

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    doh its called gamut now...

    try putting

    gamut d200

    in googly
     
    Lt Cdr Data, Oct 24, 2004
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  7. ditton

    wadia-miester Mighty Rearranger

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    Gamut (D200) has air and space (dual mono construction), nice tonal balance, and passable dynamics, but it can't live with an switcher for control/grip of a sense of music.
    Henry T had one for a couple of years before going to a Evo2i, I had one for 3 weeks !!!, again nice build
     
    wadia-miester, Oct 24, 2004
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  8. ditton

    analoguekid Planet Rush

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    I have to put in a word for the Bow Walrus, 150WPC 8ohms, dual mono, balanced and unbalanced, runs hot, but not toddler worryingly so, ditton you are welcome over for a listen, Stickman has one with a non Bow system, why not PM him see what he thinks, can be had for around £2k s/h exdem.
     
    analoguekid, Oct 24, 2004
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  9. ditton

    ditton happy old soul

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    but for how much longer:
    https://www.audio-forums.com/as-rediect/showthread.php?threadid=1146

    However, I do recall reading up about this when it was for sale here. No opportunity for home demo but it did seem a good deal.

    [I was near to buying but at that time it was too early: now I can opt for a poweramp as I no longer *need* that integrated in order to use my hifi main speakers as surrounds.]

    Are they on offer anywhere? And what is the maintainance prospect.
     
    ditton, Oct 24, 2004
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  10. ditton

    ditton happy old soul

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    thanks for the new replies guys.

    I guess that 'switcher' is new slang for the digital amp! And yes, it was HenryT as I recall.

    Might take you up on that demo option, Analoguekid. Am off to google the walrus ..
     
    ditton, Oct 24, 2004
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  11. ditton

    alanbeeb Grumpy young fogey

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    Pete - given that you are generally not finding huge differences between all the amps you have tried, certainly nothing that's really grabbed you, I'm wondering if its not some other aspect of the system that should be looked at. It seems to me you got a much bigger return from getting your DAX + transport upgraded to Black gates and Ncode.

    On the PS Audio HCA-2 front, after using it with a preamp rather than direct from the CD player I found it was a substantial step up from the Integrated I had before. Now this surprised me greatly because the integrated I was using was a Lavardin IT which is often regarded as one of the best amps ever, and the best thing I had ever heard hitherto - having heard on home demo amps from Gryphon, Bow, Krell, all kinds of Sugdens, XTC, LFD etc.

    And also surprising since the pre-amp I'm using it is a simple Sugden headmaster which is primarily a headphone amp and is probably the weakest link in my current system. Given my experiences I'm surprised you are not feeling/hearing substantial improvements....

    So maybe might be worth looking at speakers? Just a thought.

    Have a good think about the kind of sound you want to hear and see what suggestions come in.
     
    alanbeeb, Oct 24, 2004
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  12. ditton

    adam

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    If you like the Audiolab sound,why not look for some Audiolab Mono blocks,same tone,just more power and grip.Just use the S as a pre.
     
    adam, Oct 24, 2004
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  13. ditton

    ditton happy old soul

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    Alan, maybe diminishing returns are now setting in. (having just spent nearly two hours watching the footie, I will now return to listening, and will wallow in the Blues, even that modern Fado music, Christina Branco) You may be right about the speakers - perhaps we should persuade Dunkyboy to bring over his active ATC 20s to dance with the Dax again.

    Adam, you might also be right. Now although the Dax Decade does not require a pre-amp, I do have another use of the AudioLab for another project - completing upgrade on the AV side by acquiring 3 channels of amplification, for which the 8000S will do two, adding something a bit better, but tonally similar for the centre. GaryG has pointed me towards JLH monoblocs which have similar tone but are, according to Gary, that much better.

    edit: I suppose I could enlist the 8000S as a pre, just to see the effect! Off to do that now.
     
    ditton, Oct 24, 2004
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  14. ditton

    ditton happy old soul

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    I think I'm settling for the PS Audio HCA-2 as my poweramp. I like what it does, and what it doesn't. My only criticism is a background hum, that seems to come from it, and from the speakers when close up. But I don't sit that close to my speakers and I'm reckonning on placing the power amp at the bottom of the rack which means that the sofa should make it shut up!

    Thanks for all the advice. I'm going to shift the AudioLab to AV duties and will have my eye/ear open for a mono of similar tone (but a bit more oomph) for the centre.

    And thanks to Alan for the homeloans (of kit not cash)
     
    ditton, Oct 25, 2004
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  15. ditton

    m9dlh

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    Hi Ditton,

    I have a Dax Decade and Transcend top loader into a Desire power amp. I have been reading your posts regarding your upgrade of the DAX with Black Gates.

    Could you please tell me how much the upgrade costs?

    Also on a scale of 1 to 10 how did you rate the original Dax Decade and then the DAX decade with black gates?

    What have been the areas of sound that have been improved most?

    Sorry to mither but I am really interested in the upgrades for both the DAX and the Desire.

    Thanks fro your help,

    Darren ([email protected])
     
    m9dlh, Oct 26, 2004
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  16. ditton

    ditton happy old soul

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    Hi Darren,

    I'll email you with some details about costs. Do you have balenced or single-ended?

    when I bought the Dax Decade - plain vanilla single-ended - it was a massive step up for me, so I would the have given it 10. I became critical - dont we all - so 8.5 might be a good base, from which to say that with Black Gates it went back up to 10.

    They had a v.long burn in, so I test my memory of the 'before', but the general sense is of a more 'organic', less digital sound. the notes were rounder.

    Do you have the Ncode in the Transcend? The net effect of that has been to have better timing and separation, again further realism.

    the above may come across as tosh, but I've been down to London and back on a train and I wacked ...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 26, 2004
    ditton, Oct 26, 2004
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