A visit to Titian's

tones

tones

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Last Saturday, I was able to visit Titian down in what other Swiss call ââ'¬Å"Tiefschweizââ'¬Â (ââ'¬Å"darkest Switzerlandââ'¬Â) and hear once again his remarkable system. GrahamN and Ian (Sideshowbob) reported on it previously - see, for example

https://www.audio-forums.com/as-rediect/showthread.php?s=&threadid=367&highlight=three+lunatics

As readers may remember, it is essentially American, based around speakers and power amplifiers from US manufacturer Nestorovic, with an enormous Krell driving the two big subwoofers. The other details can be found here:

http://aca.gr/pop_rai.htm

There are a couple of differences between the present set-up and the one reported here. Titian has replaced the CD player with a Metronome Kalista, a four-box player ââ'¬â€œ well, actually three box and a transport that looks like a refugee from ââ'¬Å"Star Trekââ'¬Â (already present for the ââ'¬Å"Three Lunaticsââ'¬Â tour). See

http://www.metronome-technologie.com/admin/produit.php?id_titre=184

In addition, Titian now has new Pagode Master Reference supports from the German company Finite Elemente:

http://www.finite-elemente.de/d,,produkte,pagodemasterref.html

They look very smart and he's very happy with them.

Since there was only one of me this time, I was able to hear the system working in a wide variety of music of my choice and which I knew well. And I tell you, it was marvellous! I've never heard speakers disappear quite so completely. This depended very much on the recordings. Some recordings clung stubbornly to the boxes, but others (such as the Minowski version of Charpentier's Te Deum) floated freely in space between the speakers, in a way I'd never heard before. In his report, GrahamN described the big soundstage. I didn't notice this at the time, but this time, with material with which I was more familiar, I did. In Paul McCreesh's marvellous reconstruction of a Lutheran Mass for Christmas Day, the flaring trumpets and thundering drums of the final fanfare of ââ'¬Å"In dulci jubiloââ'¬Â definitely came from the back of the cathedral. Moreover, the system could be played incredibly loud, without your really noticing that this was the case.

We did everything from mediaeval to Mahler and it all sounded great. In the King's Singers' classic recording of Clément Jannequin's madrigal ââ'¬Å"La Guerreââ'¬Â (complete with battle noises!), the sextet was there in front of you, just the way they stand on stage. The sonorities of Rachmaninov's Vespers in the famous Sveshnikov recording, with the deeeeeeeep rumbling basses were beautifully captured. Naturally I had to try Those Other Vespers ââ'¬â€œ Gardiner and his merry (wo)men in Monteverdi's ââ'¬Å"Lauda Jerusalemââ'¬Â in San Marco, with the choral lines ricocheting between the double choirs, sounded glorious. And so did my old favourite test record, the Pinnock version of Handel's Water Music ââ'¬â€œ as I mentioned last time, I've never heard the rasp of baroque violins better distinguished from their modern cousins. We also did some comparisons of various versions of the Bach Passacaglia in C and a bit of Mahler and, oh, quite a lot of other things. In short, it may not sound like live music in a concert hall (Titian's objective), but I've never heard anything that comes closer.

If the system has a problem, it's that it's too good - it can take the software to its limits and then some. As a result, poor-quality recordings are exposed for what they are.

Future developments? Titian wants to optimise the room acoustically and has already taken steps in this direction.

In short, should I ever be left a fortune, I'm going to buy a house (to get a dedicated music room) and system just like this!

P.S. I had both vinyl and CD versions of the Pinnock Water Music with me, so I had to try them out to hear the alleged superiority of vinyl. Except that I didn't, because it simply wasn't there. They sounded pretty much the same. There may have been subtle differences, but nothing that jumped out and shouted ââ'¬Å"Hey, look how much better I sound!ââ'¬Â Having once caught myself in the act of hearing what I wanted to hear, I insist on a big, instantly-hearable difference, and I didn't get it. Titian said he could hear more ââ'¬Å"airââ'¬Â around the instruments in the vinyl version, but admitted that there really wasn't much difference between the two. He has been much happier with the Kalista than with his previous player, and as a result is now starting to buy a lot more CDs!
 
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So these rumours about you being a DOG (Deaf Old Git) are just that, rumours.:p

Good write-up, easy to follow without blinding us with big words. glad you enjoyed youself.
 
Originally posted by Dev
So these rumours about you being a DOG (Deaf Old Git) are just that, rumours.:p

Good write-up, easy to follow without blinding us with big words. glad you enjoyed youself.
Click to expand...

Eh? Wassat?

I guess I could have employed a few big words, but they didn't fit (marmalade, cantankerous, floccinaucinihilipilification - the last-mentioned would especially definitely NOT apply to Titian's system!)
 
Ian and myself are planning to go out the weekend 19/20th June.

I'm sure that Titian wouldn't mind another ZG'er to go over. In fairness it should be somebody with greater classical knowledge than either of us, although we are willing to learn.

Let Titian and myself know and we'll sort tickets/times out. Usually go out Friday night and return Monday, unless Titian has got other things (like work) to do.

Can't wait to hear the new setup.
 
I'm looking forward to it. It was easily better than anything else I've heard last time I heard it, and that was prior to some essential servicing work, so I'd expect it to be close to state of the art now.

-- Ian
 
So it didn,t sound like your set up then Tones ?
I know Titan would probably throw a fit at this suggestion , but it would be interesting if , when you guys were next over he let you listen to his system for a few hours and then removed ALL his leads and replaced them with stock items and then let you guys see if you could hear a difference.(and how big a difference if it existed).
I,m sure you guys could help him with stock leads if he never kept any .
And no , before everyone jumps on me, I,m not trying to start another debate .
It,s just to my thinking considering the kit AND the leads used in Titans system, if ever there was going to be a window that could show you these differences (if they exist) then it,s going to be Titans system .
 
Originally posted by kermit
So it didn,t sound like your set up then Tones ?
I know Titan would probably throw a fit at this suggestion , but it would be interesting if , when you guys were next over he let you listen to his system for a few hours and then removed ALL his leads and replaced them with stock items and then let you guys see if you could hear a difference.(and how big a difference if it existed).
Click to expand...

Bugger that for a lark. It's a music weekend not a box shifting one.

Originally posted by kermit
And no , before everyone jumps on me, I,m not trying to start another debate .
Click to expand...

Yeah, right :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by kermit
So it didn,t sound like your set up then Tones ?
I know Titan would probably throw a fit at this suggestion , but it would be interesting if , when you guys were next over he let you listen to his system for a few hours and then removed ALL his leads and replaced them with stock items and then let you guys see if you could hear a difference.(and how big a difference if it existed).
I,m sure you guys could help him with stock leads if he never kept any .
And no , before everyone jumps on me, I,m not trying to start another debate .
It,s just to my thinking considering the kit AND the leads used in Titans system, if ever there was going to be a window that could show you these differences (if they exist) then it,s going to be Titans system .
Click to expand...

Well, yes it did, it's just that there was a lot more of it in all sorts of ways!

Anyone who wanted to perform the exercise you suggest had better come with several miles of stock cables, because Titian has LOT of cables! Those from the pre-amp to the Krell power amp are around 4M long, and then from the Krell there go 2x2 of roughly 2M to each of the Nestorovic power amps that sit behind each speaker (not forgetting the connections from the Krell to the subwoofers at each side). Then there are the connections to the speakers - these are the ones done by the extraordinary Fadel "Goldline" boxes you can just see hanging from the ceiling behind the speakers in the photo.

Ultimately, who cares whether the wires make a difference or not? I'll never be in a position to afford Fadel cables (those suspended boxes cost more than all the hi-fi I own), so for me the question is irrelevant. Titian is a discriminating listener, and if he thinks they make a difference and enhance his listening experience, that's fine by me. And, as Lee says, it's really a matter of spending time with good company and enjoying music from an immensely musical and satisfying system.
 
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Re: A visit to Titian's (part 1)

Originally posted by tones
Last Saturday, I was able to visit Titian down in what other Swiss call ââ'¬Å"Tiefschweizââ'¬Â (ââ'¬Å"darkest Switzerlandââ'¬Â) and hear once again his remarkable system.
Click to expand...
Yes I can confirm that tones was here in the darkest Switzerland. Infact it was a rainy day with a lot of dark clouds.:D
I would like to thank tones for this brave move and for the great company.
As readers may remember, it is essentially American, based around speakers and power amplifiers from US manufacturer Nestorovic, with an enormous Krell driving the two big subwoofers. The other details can be found here:
http://aca.gr/pop_rai.htm
Click to expand...
I'd better make some new photos and send them there. :rolleyes:

In addition, Titian now has new Pagode Master Reference supports from the German company Finite Elemente:
http://www.finite-elemente.de/d,,produkte,pagodemasterref.html
They look very smart and he's very happy with them.
Click to expand...
:boogie: :MO!: :drum: :banana: :PRaT: :mo:

Since there was only one of me this time, I was able to hear the system working in a wide variety of music of my choice and which I knew well.
Click to expand...
This is a good point. When listening to music relaxed and concentrated you can enjoy it much more and you will hear many more details reproduced from the hifi sytem then when many small things deconcentrate you.
When Graham, Lee and Ian were here, there was a lot to talk together and to listen to so that it wasn't hardly possible to concentrate on a whole piece of music. When Ian came here for the first time and now tones, we had the possibility to concentrate on the music very well and therefore it was possible to notice even more the positive and negative points of the system. This doesn't mean I enjoy less the weekend when all of them came. Actually that was the best weekend I had since ages and I was very sad on that monday when they left.
What I want to say is that it is very important the way you hear music when comparing or judging systems. Especially in places like hifi-shows where there are lot of sources of distraction I find it very difficult to judge a system / component.

Some recordings clung stubbornly to the boxes, but others (such as the Minowski version of Charpentier's Te Deum) floated freely in space between the speakers, in a way I'd never heard before. In his report, GrahamN described the big soundstage. I didn't notice this at the time, but this time, with material with which I was more familiar, I did. In Paul McCreesh's marvellous reconstruction of a Lutheran Mass for Christmas Day, the flaring trumpets and thundering drums of the final fanfare of ââ'¬Å"In dulci jubiloââ'¬Â definitely came from the back of the cathedral. Moreover, the system could be played incredibly loud, without your really noticing that this was the case.
We did everything from mediaeval to Mahler and it all sounded great. In the King's Singers' classic recording of Clément Jannequin's madrigal ââ'¬Å"La Guerreââ'¬Â (complete with battle noises!), the sextet was there in front of you, just the way they stand on stage. The sonorities of Rachmaninov's Vespers in the famous Sveshnikov recording, with the deeeeeeeep rumbling basses were beautifully captured. Naturally I had to try Those Other Vespers ââ'¬â€œ Gardiner and his merry (wo)men in Monteverdi's ââ'¬Å"Lauda Jerusalemââ'¬Â in San Marco, with the choral lines ricocheting between the double choirs, sounded glorious. And so did my old favourite test record, the Pinnock version of Handel's Water Music ââ'¬â€œ as I mentioned last time, I've never heard the rasp of baroque violins better distinguished from their modern cousins. We also did some comparisons of various versions of the Bach Passacaglia in C and a bit of Mahler and, oh, quite a lot of other things.
Click to expand...
Tones, it was fantastic music. I rarely hear music from the periods you brought last saturday (even if I have quite a number of LPs of those periods) and therefore it was a great experience for me to get remembered that there are so wonderful pieces composed in those centuries.
In short, it may not sound like live music in a concert hall (Titian's objective), ...
Click to expand...
Very true, still lacking somewhere :confused:
Future developments? Titian wants to optimise the room acoustically and has already taken steps in this direction.
Click to expand...
Yes. :MILD:
Then replace the broken cartridge and next year maybe a new phono stage.

In short, should I ever be left a fortune, I'm going to buy a house (to get a dedicated music room) and system just like this!
Click to expand...
I think you don't need to spend as much as money I did to be able to get near what I have and therefore nevertheless totaly satisfied also because you are not concerned or fussy like I am with all details that could be heard (immagination?) or not.
P.S. I had both vinyl and CD versions of the Pinnock Water Music with me, so I had to try them out to hear the alleged superiority of vinyl. Except that I didn't, because it simply wasn't there. They sounded pretty much the same. There may have been subtle differences, but nothing that jumped out and shouted ââ'¬Å"Hey, look how much better I sound!ââ'¬Â Having once caught myself in the act of hearing what I wanted to hear, I insist on a big, instantly-hearable difference, and I didn't get it. Titian said he could hear more ââ'¬Å"airââ'¬Â around the instruments in the vinyl version, but admitted that there really wasn't much difference between the two. He has been much happier with the Kalista than with his previous player, and as a result is now starting to buy a lot more CDs!
Click to expand...
very true.
 
Re: a visit to titian (part 2)

Originally posted by Dev
So these rumours about you being a DOG (Deaf Old Git) are just that, rumours.
Click to expand...
I know you are joking but in effect I think that tones can hear much better then we all think he does, and much better then what he let us believe.
Maybe we doesn't hear some details which I think I hear but he certainly can hear very slight distortions in some parts of the music or other details which lot of people who came here couldn't. It is interesting before going home, I did a test with him swaping between two power cables which cost more or less the same. While I heard some slight differences in the high frequencies ('air' ?) he immeadiately said: 'no difference', 'no difference', 'still no difference'. I do believe him and that is end of any discussion.
Originally posted by LiloLee
I'm sure that Titian wouldn't mind another ZG'er to go over. In fairness it should be somebody with greater classical knowledge than either of us, although we are willing to learn.
Click to expand...
Please come! but it doesn't have to be someone who has knowledge in classical music. Actually I would be very interested in hearing other kind of music which I never heard. I am quite open to new experiences.
Originally posted by tones
Hi, Ian, the frightening thing is that it's still not operating to its full capacity
Click to expand...
Well the 5-6dbs missing on the right channel this weekend make a big difference concerning also that the acoustic of the room seems to be very good for the low frequencies (which is quite abnormal).
I expect a great sound improvement after the room has been optimized. I hope only that the specialist is capable to do a good job since my room has a complicated form.
Originally posted by kermit
I know Titan would probably throw a fit at this suggestion , but it would be interesting if , when you guys were next over he let you listen to his system for a few hours and then removed ALL his leads and replaced them with stock items and then let you guys see if you could hear a difference.(and how big a difference if it existed).
I,m sure you guys could help him with stock leads if he never kept any .
And no , before everyone jumps on me, I,m not trying to start another debate .
It,s just to my thinking considering the kit AND the leads used in Titans system, if ever there was going to be a window that could show you these differences (if they exist) then it,s going to be Titans system .
Click to expand...
kermit, unfortunately I'm not a Titan but only that famous painter Titian. :D
I'm not that person who would reject such a suggestion like yours. I would also be interested in knowing how much difference (if any) I or somebody else hear with today's sytem. Last time Ian, Graham and Ian came we also tried some different phono stages so it isn't that we are against hardware-swapping or tweaking. When I come to Lee's place we often compare different stuff but we also discuss a lot things, also not concerning Hifi.
Originally posted by LiloLee
It's a music weekend not a box shifting one.
Click to expand...
Got the point. It is a music weekend. A weekend where we exchange opinions, where we get nearer to the music loved by the other person.
The hardware is secondary importance, it is only helps us to understand / enjoy more the music.
Originally posted by tones
Anyone who wanted to perform the exercise you suggest had better come with several miles of stock cables, because Titian has LOT of cables! Those from the pre-amp to the Krell power amp are around 4M long, and then from the Krell there go 2x2 of roughly 2M to each of the Nestorovic power amps that sit behind each speaker (not forgetting the connections from the Krell to the subwoofers at each side). Then there are the connections to the speakers - these are the ones done by the extraordinary Fadel "Goldline" boxes you can just see hanging from the ceiling behind the speakers in the photo.
Click to expand...
Cable length:
- Phono stage -> preamp: 1.5 m
- DAC -> preamp: 1.5 m
- preamp -> amps: 2 x 8 m (to minimize the costs I had made a special pair of Y-cable from Fadel which after 5 m spilts into 2 (one for the Nestorovic amp and the other to the Krell).
- amp -> satellites: a special made Goldline version (to minimize costs). From the amp there are 4 cables going into the speakers.
- amp -> subwoofers: 2 m (nearly short!)
So if you want to test cables, you know what to bring. I also have different good and not expensive spare cables.
About Fadel cables: I am not sure today that these are the best. Of course they are very good but today I believe that they could be other better and less expensive. Nestorovic has mentioned me a company which will send me some cables for testing... First though the room will be optimized.

I'm really looking forward to know who is going to come with Ian and Lee.

PS (to Lee and Ian):
I will be taking some holidys from work when you will come here. You are welcome to stay here even longer if you feel like.
 
Originally posted by LiloLee
Titian

No takers so far so it could be a Jazz weekend. I'll bring some Fusion and Prog just for a change :D and some cables :eek:
Click to expand...

I am very keen but can Titian move just a little bit closer?, to Kent perhaps?:D
 
Originally posted by Dev
I am very keen but can Titian move just a little bit closer?, to Kent perhaps?:D
Click to expand...
From the check-in in Heathrow airport to my place it is no more than 4 hours. Is that much?:rolleyes:
 

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