An independent view of the future?
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I agreed with the piece where it said that people expect more functionality from one smaller unit. Comparing what one gets from, say, an iPod vs. the mainly airspace in a Naim power suppy, I can understand this POV.Originally posted by auric
Is it prehaps that in the mind of the public seperate boxes = GEEK but home theatre, surround sound & DVD anything = a truly sophisticated prosumer?
Auric
joel
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I guess we just have to live with the fact that we are geeks 
I think there is a quite sizeable niche market for "pure audio" as we call it over here (and "analog" is the very height of trendy right now in our great megalopolis), it's really a question of how big that core market becomes and it's demographics.
The "decline" in audio is linked as far as I can see with the "decline" in music sales. MOst ordinary consumers (ie the ones who never bought half-decent kit anyway) don't want sound without vision now and are not really *that* interested in music.
I think there is a quite sizeable niche market for "pure audio" as we call it over here (and "analog" is the very height of trendy right now in our great megalopolis), it's really a question of how big that core market becomes and it's demographics.
The "decline" in audio is linked as far as I can see with the "decline" in music sales. MOst ordinary consumers (ie the ones who never bought half-decent kit anyway) don't want sound without vision now and are not really *that* interested in music.
Just my first thoughts...
Quote "The mass-market Japanese companies that used to manufacture separates - Sony, Pioneer, Kenwood and Sharp - have all moved on to DVDs. ..."
Great, super. It is very good that companies who never had the music quality as first priority disapper from the hifi (stereo) scene. It is also good that the consumers who don't care / have a clue about music quality disappear from the Hifi scene. Then there will be more place for the lots of small companies which are really interested in music quality.
I go for less choice but better quality.
Great, "we" do not need to do a crusade to burn alive these demons: they will go away by themselves. Live coudn't be better. :gatling: :chop: :laser: :saw:
Quote "The mass-market Japanese companies that used to manufacture separates - Sony, Pioneer, Kenwood and Sharp - have all moved on to DVDs. ..."
Great, super. It is very good that companies who never had the music quality as first priority disapper from the hifi (stereo) scene. It is also good that the consumers who don't care / have a clue about music quality disappear from the Hifi scene. Then there will be more place for the lots of small companies which are really interested in music quality.
I go for less choice but better quality.
Great, "we" do not need to do a crusade to burn alive these demons: they will go away by themselves. Live coudn't be better. :gatling: :chop: :laser: :saw:
joel
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FWIW, Sony have just introduced a 10K USD two channel digital amp, and Yamaha have introduced a 6K USD two channel digital amp and a 3K USD passive two-channel pre. Sharp have several mid to high end two channel amps and SACD players on the market and Pioneer are still in there.
I don't think it's that these companies don't care (although you could make a case for Sony), but that they can't make ends meet, but then very few companies can in strictly 2-channel, at least not without charging stupid prices.
All IMMHO
amazingtrade
Mad Madchestoh fan
Marantz are also sticking with the two channel line up as they regconise the niche.
I have found that a lot of people that are not audiohpiles are getting into seperates becasue they are simply fed up of how bad their mini systems sound. However I am biased as I am on an I.T course anyway so these people are very technical people that would naturaly be interested in seperate boxes etc.
Personaly I have no interest in home cinema whats so ever, I have a DVD player, I have a Philips TV with a smashing tube but I am not interested in wide screen or multi channel sound. In terms of spending driniking/clubbing comes first, then music then my HIFI.
The public are falling for those £100 DVD player, amp and 5 speaker packages and sub. And they sound truly awful.
I would like more companies making budget DACs as I think with the raise of free view, dab and other mediums a central DAC will be required on all systems if you want good quality for all the digital sources.
I have found that a lot of people that are not audiohpiles are getting into seperates becasue they are simply fed up of how bad their mini systems sound. However I am biased as I am on an I.T course anyway so these people are very technical people that would naturaly be interested in seperate boxes etc.
Personaly I have no interest in home cinema whats so ever, I have a DVD player, I have a Philips TV with a smashing tube but I am not interested in wide screen or multi channel sound. In terms of spending driniking/clubbing comes first, then music then my HIFI.
The public are falling for those £100 DVD player, amp and 5 speaker packages and sub. And they sound truly awful.
I would like more companies making budget DACs as I think with the raise of free view, dab and other mediums a central DAC will be required on all systems if you want good quality for all the digital sources.
penance
Arrogant Cock
To be fair, if they are happy with the quality then thats all that matters.
Horses fer courses innit
Just because you have products in those price segments doesn't mean you are interested in music quality! Over here there is completely another interest.
Not sure about sharp, but Sony (ES-series, MDR-CD3000 and R10), Kenwood (3020, 3030 series etc) and Pioneer (A400, Precision players) means to me that these companies actually were really quite interested in hifi and produced some very good kit in their time. I for one think it is a pity these companies have pulled out of the market, if indeed they have.
amazingtrade
Mad Madchestoh fan
I read that the Audio arm Kenwood is pulling out all together so but I can't see them stop making car stereos as this was their strongest market probably. It looks like Pioneer has pulled out the market for good as they only seem to making multi channel systems now.
I have Sony's catologue and the company only make 4 CD Players now. The only budget one is the Sony XE CD370 they have even stopped making the 570. I think they are still making the 570 amp. Its a shame though.
I have Sony's catologue and the company only make 4 CD Players now. The only budget one is the Sony XE CD370 they have even stopped making the 570. I think they are still making the 570 amp. Its a shame though.
michaelab
desafinado
Even if Sony, Pioneer etc are continuing to make quality 2ch gear very few people are going to buy it regardless. Sony, for example, is only taken seriously in high-end circles for its SACD players where it has some credibility for being the co-inventor of the format.
Anyone spending even just £1K on a stereo component would rather buy something a little bit more esoteric than a Sony which is why companies like them have only ever really competed in the lower end of the market and that low end stereo market has all but disappeared now.
Michael.
Anyone spending even just £1K on a stereo component would rather buy something a little bit more esoteric than a Sony which is why companies like them have only ever really competed in the lower end of the market and that low end stereo market has all but disappeared now.
Michael.
joel
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Same could be said for many of the peddlers of high-end tosh. Inversely, that companies like Sharp, Sony and Pioneer *do* persevere with 2-channel means that there are at least a few people at those companies who are interested in sound quality.Originally posted by titian
Just because you have products in those price segments doesn't mean you are interested in music quality! Over here there is completely another interest.
None of these companies has to make 2-channel kit, and I doubt nay of them makes money from this stuff.
They choose to do so.
tones
compulsive cantater
Aha, Titian, ol' bean, you have to remember that there are those of us who can never aspire to your end of the market, and who therefore have to make compromises. And some of those compromises aren't that bad. My first CD player was a Sony, and it was (OK, to my ears) excellent. I only got rid of it a few years ago, because the parts no longer existed to repair it (it was about 13 years old at the time). And the quality of sound produced was just fine. So, don't write them off, because they're exploring other avenues - they have the capacity to produce excellent equipment.
Hi Tones,
I was not referring at all to "my end of the market". Don't forget that I also lived 3 decades with stuff like you have or even much less good and I don't forget those years and I never thought they were worse than my today's days.
Even now when I watch a DVD I hardly switch on to my McIntosh equipment with Nestorovic full frequency loudspeakers (not the big ones) and just listen to the TV's loudspeakers. I nevertheless enjoy the film!
The point I was referring to is that these companies have only a goal to make as much profit possible. That's all! You can turn it around like you want but that's it. During the years they change strategies making better or worse stuff, inventing new things, re-inventing old things and all this just for one purpose. Ok they sometimes came out with really good stuff and a lot of people were happy with this.
Now the situation is that it is very difficult to make better stuff unless you invest a lot of money and unless you make stuff with "love" for what you do.
There are many other small companies which bring out products with a same or better price /quality rate and therefore they just don't see the reason to stay in the market. It is much easier to make a new trend, but not for our sake! I just say that we don't need such companies in the HIfi because there are enough other ones that do at least the same job if not better. And some of these companies do it also "for a bit of love for music".
It is up to us to find these companies and suport them.
tones
compulsive cantater
But doesn't this describe all companies these days, Titian? All companies want to make a profit, indeed exist to make a profit. The bigger the company, the more shareholders, the more pressure to "improve shareholder value". This includes the hi-fi companies. I think that those who make equipment purely for love are few and far between and these few belong exclusively in the super-hi-end of the market, 'way beyond the reach of normal mortals. So, while I'd love to support to them, they'd have to reduce their prices to one-tenth of the present ones! I mean, even Linn and Naim, relatively affordable, now both have CD players at absurd prices. Even they are creeping out of our reach. So, we're left with Sony and the other profit makers.
As you're probably aware, the big German magazines love testing this stuff, you know, Mark Levinson power amps at around EUR30,000. I mean, my entire hi-fi equipment, both systems 1 and 2 together, cost less than one-third of that!
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What's all the hubbub about? Much of the basis for this story is a spin on the natural evolution of markets and manufacturing.
7 years ago only the Americans and Japanese had DVD. The nay-sayers predicted the format would never take off in the UK "Europe doesn't want another pre-recorded film format. Laser disc never took off, so this won't either". Well, they were wrong - and how!!
Now were looking at the demise of separates, are we? And all because 'everyone' wants a multi-function play all format. Well, duh! It's called 'price elasticity'. Make something cheap enough and the market expands in response.
Developing new markets is what manufacturers do. This year they sell 1000 budget machines for every 10 high-end products. Next year they sell 10,000 budget:10 high-end. The market for high-end remained the same, it just that budget grew much bigger, but the ratios can be interpreted a different way.
7 years ago only the Americans and Japanese had DVD. The nay-sayers predicted the format would never take off in the UK "Europe doesn't want another pre-recorded film format. Laser disc never took off, so this won't either". Well, they were wrong - and how!!
Now were looking at the demise of separates, are we? And all because 'everyone' wants a multi-function play all format. Well, duh!
It's called 'price elasticity'. Make something cheap enough and the market expands in response.Developing new markets is what manufacturers do. This year they sell 1000 budget machines for every 10 high-end products. Next year they sell 10,000 budget:10 high-end. The market for high-end remained the same, it just that budget grew much bigger, but the ratios can be interpreted a different way.
Great insight. If you would allows me to give my humble opinion as well.
A friend of our family from Japan came to visit and he brought along a wonderful Sony Walkman. That single toy was probably what is responsible in developing an interest in recorded music programme in my little head.
In time I bought my own Discman. That eventually becomes a Denon mini combo. The speakers were replace with a pair of British HIFI speakers a year later. If it were not for Japanese manufacturers I would think HIFI or if you prefer a low-end version of this hobby would probably remain an illusive dream.
Another thing is if it were not for the interest in AV thingy then I will still be condemn to listen to the evening news through the sad little speaker on the side of the TV. Oh, by the way, the Japanese still makes the best affordable TV.
A friend of our family from Japan came to visit and he brought along a wonderful Sony Walkman. That single toy was probably what is responsible in developing an interest in recorded music programme in my little head.
In time I bought my own Discman. That eventually becomes a Denon mini combo. The speakers were replace with a pair of British HIFI speakers a year later. If it were not for Japanese manufacturers I would think HIFI or if you prefer a low-end version of this hobby would probably remain an illusive dream.
Another thing is if it were not for the interest in AV thingy then I will still be condemn to listen to the evening news through the sad little speaker on the side of the TV. Oh, by the way, the Japanese still makes the best affordable TV.
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Hex Spurt
I agree with you. I have nothing against them to develop new markets. Actually great! And great that they don't care much about real HiFi.
"...because 'everyone' wants a multi-function play all format."
I'm not a believer that these manufacturers first look what we need and then make it for us. Modern management do it the other way around. First they have an idea, then they calculate the chance to be able to have a large market by convincing the people they need that stuff.
I agree with you. I have nothing against them to develop new markets. Actually great! And great that they don't care much about real HiFi.
"...because 'everyone' wants a multi-function play all format."
I'm not a believer that these manufacturers first look what we need and then make it for us. Modern management do it the other way around. First they have an idea, then they calculate the chance to be able to have a large market by convincing the people they need that stuff.
Let's call it then LowFi.
Yes, I agree, great! nothing against it.
TonyL
Club Krautrock Plinque
Personally I find it hard to read anything into the above other than the fact that Pioneer are no longer producing any competitive hi-fi separates. I would have been far more interested to see stats from the established brand leader in budget audio amps, which I assume is still NAD. I bet they don't sell 1000 AV amps to every 2 channel stereo one sold!
The only quote in the whole piece that holds any water is the one at the bottom from the Federation of British Audio stating that sales of separates have dropped by 25% over the past four years. This stat is understandable as home cinema is a phenomenon that has arrived in the last 4 years, and that it has taken some market share from 'proper' audio is to be expected. I suspect the 25% been taken mainly from the real low end of the market, hence the scare mongering quotes from Richer Sounds and Dixonsââ'¬Â¦ who the hell ever bought a hi-fi from Dixons? I can't ever recall them having anything above 150 quid boom boxes on sale.
The real problem is there simply isn't any good entry level kit anymore; real hi-fi now starts at the level of the Nait / Sugden A21 / Densen Beat etc, there seems to be a very big gap between Richer Sounds cheapo stuff and this stuff which I would describe as 'proper' hi-fi. Historically there were great just post entry level products like the A&R A60 / Nytech 202 / Onix etc, now its only really Rega competing in this no-mans area as far as I can see.
Tony.
Titian,
Thanks for being so frank. I certainly believe manufacturers dream up a product and then try to create a market around it.
Take SACD for instant. None of us ask for yet another recording format. A few SACD players have been offered for a few years now but I was never tempted. However, yesterday a brochure from DG label come through the door announcing that they are now new recordings in SACD format for some of their popular artists promising to us geeky audiophile they are now in higher fertility then HIFI. I think my scepticism is being eroded. Had they call it HYPERHIFI would that drove us out in a frenzy to buy them?
Thanks for being so frank. I certainly believe manufacturers dream up a product and then try to create a market around it.
Take SACD for instant. None of us ask for yet another recording format. A few SACD players have been offered for a few years now but I was never tempted. However, yesterday a brochure from DG label come through the door announcing that they are now new recordings in SACD format for some of their popular artists promising to us geeky audiophile they are now in higher fertility then HIFI. I think my scepticism is being eroded. Had they call it HYPERHIFI would that drove us out in a frenzy to buy them?
