Benz Micro LP Ebony

Coops I didn't generalise. I said that I haven't heard a valve phonostage that wasn't quiet, I didn't say one does not exist.

What cartridge and stage do you use?
 
Sorry Rob didn't mean to be short with you, you just hear so much of 'valve' sounding on forums, valves don't have to be soft or sweet or have no bass, just as ss doesn't have to be strident or harsh, regards keith.
 
Come and hear it, we were using it at the Munich Hi-End show, no transformers you see, the laws of Physics remain unchallenged!
 
alanbeeb said:
I was using a Benz Wood L2 very very happily into a Whest PS.20 for several months until it went duff.... then Benz in Switzerland took 4 months to replace it with one which turned out to be faulty from the start. At which point I reluctantly gave up on Benz - I had also previously suffered a faulty Benz Glider L2. They sound superb - when they work.
Click to expand...

To lose one Benz, Mr Beeb, may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness.
 
coops

tell me.... it's not that TW acostic valve phono by any chance is it? that has no gain at all! It had no chance of amplifying my best friends Dynavector XV1. I see from you pic next to your name you have horn speakers... what are they 98dB?

I heard the TW with horns at last years Munich. yes it sounded quiet but then the horns were 98dB sensitivity. I asked TW about the stage and he said unless you have really sensitive speakers and a 'decent' output on your cartridge...forget it!

that's not me speaking ... it was TW.

so coops, what cartridge, phono stage and speakers do you use?
 
robM said:
Someone please correct me. The WAD phonostage graph shows the MM response fine and flat. The WAD is nothing like that on MC. The MC however rolls off rapidly at low frequencies. The text says that on MC the transformers are rolling off the low frequency, so at 30hz it's -1dB down YIKES! The advantage is that you don't get any 'ponderous bass' CRAP!! On a standard RIAA curve, when measuring a stage, it's supposed to be pretty flat from 19hz-21ish khz. Using my Hagtech RIAA measuring filter, my really old and very basic Lehmann black cube 1998 edition measures better than that to within 0.3dB across all gain settings down to 20hz.
Like most (all) valve stages, it's an MM stage with a transformer to up the gain by xxdB. This is why the performance on MC is poor in the LF range, because the input transformers kill it. Devil take note. You have a great MC cartridge which produces great bass!

This is unlike many solid state stages that use a high-gain front end (already 45-50dB) and a variable gain rear end or sometimes a variable 40dB-60dB front end and a fixed 8-10dB rear.

Valve stages are good for MM and as long as you keep the valves well away from being bombarded by sound from the loudspeaker as we all know valves are highly microphonic, and anyway, it's also a historical thing (valve phono stages), before the great MC cartridge was invented all they had was moving magnet or similar.
Click to expand...

Happy to correct you.

-1 db at 30hz and -2db at 20hz is not rolling off 'rapidly at low frequencies'.

Such a response variation is likely inaudible and actually a very good performance for a phono stage.
 
Happy to correct you.

-1 db at 30hz and -2db at 20hz is not rolling off 'rapidly at low frequencies'.

Such a response variation is likely inaudible and actually a very good performance for a phono stage.

Actually, according to standard RIAA specs -1dB down at 30hz is WAY OFF! and -2dB down at 20Hz is also WAY OFF. I can see it being OK if you have a phono stage that does this.
 
robM said:
coops

tell me.... it's not that TW acostic valve phono by any chance is it? that has no gain at all! It had no chance of amplifying my best friends Dynavector XV1. I see from you pic next to your name you have horn speakers... what are they 98dB?

I heard the TW with horns at last years Munich. yes it sounded quiet but then the horns were 98dB sensitivity. I asked TW about the stage and he said unless you have really sensitive speakers and a 'decent' output on your cartridge...forget it!

that's not me speaking ... it was TW.

so coops, what cartridge, phono stage and speakers do you use?
Click to expand...

Rob I use the Cessaro Alpha's 98db and I also have a pair of the Cessaro Affascinate, which are about 104db , I use a Dynavector XV1S, Thomas' new phono has about 60db of gain more than enough for an XV1S.
You should have said hello, I was in the room all week.Keith.
 
I was actually passing through Munich on business at that point but though I'd look at the Raven AC... I do like the engineering. Yes the TW phonostage does not have enough gain so you need to make it up elsewhere. 60dB is not enough for a 0.24mV cartridge - you end up with hissss, Thomas also confirmed that. In a solid state based system you need at least 65dB for a 0.24mv cartridge and a further 4-8dB on your preamp. Your loudspeakers are 104 WOW... that's where alot of it is made up. Thomas said that he probably will not be putting the phonoi stage into production as it's too limited - at 60dB max gain, I agree.
 
The XV1S is 0.4 and there is loads of gain and no hisses, just an exceptional phono stage, I believe the phono stage is already in full production ,I will give Thomas a ring and ask.
 
The reason you have no hiss is because you are running with speakers that are VERY high sensitivity. In a 'normal' system 60dB maximum gain on a MC phono stage is not enough.... Ask any respectable hifi dealer who uses SS with 0.15-0.4mV.

Koetsu 0.6mV into 60dB is just about OK in normal systems and I say normal because I don't know anyone using a pair of speakers with 104dB sensitivity figures. Ask Thomas this simple question:

I have a Dynavector Te Kaitora Rua 0.25mV and a solid state preamp say a Naim something with a maximum gain of 12dB or even 15dB driving a NAP300 or even a pair of active ATC 100s. With the TW phonostage at 60dB/ 100 ohms will I get hiss? I already know what the answer is...

It won't work! There is not enough gain with that stage which is why he was using it with ULTRA efficient loudspeakers. it meant he could run the volume pot low - effectively hiding the hiss - and with 104dB or more efficiency would still get what sounds like 200 watts.

Thomas didn't think there was a market for a 60dB maximum gain phonostage. In an ideal world you would need at least a maximum of 70dB to satisfy everyone from the passive preamp brigade (no gain) or the 0.15mV Audio Note, to the high output MC fans that use 55dB or moving magnet 42dB.
 
Rob I don't know who you thought you were talking to in Munich, but i have just spoken to Thomas Woschnick and he assures me there will be no problem with your cart at 0.24mV and the phono stage is in full production, at the moment I am using the XV1S wit hmy Alpha's 98db Allnic pre and power amps , sounds absolutely superb, the Allnic 1500 phono is my reference, valve regulated power supply, LCR eq, I am looking forward to comparing the two stages.
 
The speaker sensitivity makes no difference. But all electronics hisses and there's a theoretical limit quieter than which you can't get. So silence is not an option.

The other point is that it would have to be an incompetent amp to be a significant contributor to background noise while the stylus is in the groove, but I think hiss could annoy every time The Devil walked past his left speaker on the way to the turntable.

Paul
 
I'm not wild about the idea of having valve components in my system. I think they are a bit old-fashioned, to be honest. I can't see any particular advantages to having them, and there are a lot of drawbacks.
 
I agree, there are no particular advantages to valves, but valve units when intelligently designed can compete head-on with SS - certainly at line and phono stage level.

One possible advantage is overload headroom which is typically enormous with a valve phono stage, though that advantage is debatable in the real world.

I stick with my valve phono stage because it's the best I've heard to date but if a box of OP amps or transistors comes along that betters it, I'll buy it.
Rega's new phono stage is certainly on my audition list and no valves in that.
 
Pesky old fashioned compression drivers, beryllium diaphragms amongst the best drivers you can buy, old fashioned valves old fashioned vinyl tsk tsk.
 

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