c£15k budget for DAC based system, ideas please

D

dominicT

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Hi guys,

Two years ago I downgraded from a Wadia transport and dac, Nuvista M3, high-end T/T and Sonus Fabers to a Quad 99cdp and 909 power amp; I kept the SFs. I now want to start over again and get something really good and have a budget of around £15,000. I expect that all of my existing gear will not be required, especially as I want more bottom end.

I started by listening to Bel Canto (based on Wadiameister liking them) but the CD and pre/power was not to my taste - too forward and fatiguing and a comparatively 'shut-in' sound (to my ears) but detail was fabulous! I liked the Ayon CD-1 but it has no Digital in. I also liked the Audio Arts but it lacked detail compared to the other two CDPs.

I need a digital input so it could be a DAC or a CDP with input eg Wadia. I will be almost exclusively listening uncompressed music stored on my Mac and streamed via Sonos then via digital input to a DAC/CDP.

On the speaker front I liked the Quad ESL 2905 for their openness and naturalness, although I was a little put off by their size. The LSA LSA2 Signatures were more dynamic and had more detail and a combination of these two would be very interesting. Martin Logans sounded dissappointing and 'boxy' by comparison to the others. I need to listen to the Wilson Benesch ACT as I was previously impressed a few years ago.

Amp - most listening after the Bel Cantos was on the Coda CSI - it sounded good but not quite rythmic enough - Stevie Wonder was not quite funky enough, although my main focus was trying to get the speakers and CDP ends right first.

Would be very interested in opinions on how to take this forward as I am hoping to make a purchase within the next four weeks. BTW I am happy to go pre-owned or new although clearly £15k will go further on pre-owned but I need to be able to demo stuff properly before buying.

Many thanks D
 
I'll shamelessly say :D I have a (distributor-modified) Wadia 25 I'm not using at the moment.
 
Dom Hi, I would try and decide upon speakers first, I believe they will make the most difference, be they boxes panels horns whatever, re DACs , I have been listening to some pro dacs recently and the quality has really surprised me, listening to an MSB at the moment ,which has a passive volume control, so you can use it straight into the your power amps, with active speakers it would make a neat and super sounding system.
You would be more than welcome to come and have a listen, I am in North London, Keith.
www.puriteaudio.co.uk
 
Apart from not costing a rude amount, the Cambridge Audio 840 CD player fits your needs very well with a DAC input. It may be from a 'mid-fi' brand but IMO it really is all the CD anyone could need. Spend more if you want a super pretty box but don't ignore the 840 just because it is relatively affordable.

In terms of speakers have you heard the Quad 989? I certainly preferred it to the newer series. Have you heard the Jamo R909? Try and hear it if you haven't.
 
coops said:
Dom Hi, I would try and decide upon speakers first, I believe they will make the most difference, be they boxes panels horns whatever, re DACs , I have been listening to some pro dacs recently and the quality has really surprised me, listening to an MSB at the moment ,which has a passive volume control, so you can use it straight into the your power amps, with active speakers it would make a neat and super sounding system.
You would be more than welcome to come and have a listen, I am in North London, Keith.
www.puriteaudio.co.uk
Click to expand...
Thanks for the tip. I have a studio so get to hear a pro dac almost every day. Which Dacs in particular do you think will give Wadia, Ayon etc a run for their money? D
 
Tenson said:
Apart from not costing a rude amount, the Cambridge Audio 840 CD player fits your needs very well with a DAC input. It may be from a 'mid-fi' brand but IMO it really is all the CD anyone could need. Spend more if you want a super pretty box but don't ignore the 840 just because it is relatively affordable.

In terms of speakers have you heard the Quad 989? I certainly preferred it to the newer series. Have you heard the Jamo R909? Try and hear it if you haven't.
Click to expand...

Hi thanks for letting me know about the 840. The challenge will be that the dealers who stock the Cambridge do not stock the amp and speakers I am listening to so I will have to get it on loan. I will check out the 989 but having read a few reviews last night most commentators say that the 2905 has better bass and dynamics and the 2905 may or may not be dynamic enough for me.
 
stickman said:
I'll shamelessly say :D I have a (distributor-modified) Wadia 25 I'm not using at the moment.
Click to expand...
Hi what are you using now? If there is something better, then I am probably interested in the something better, if within my budget, but please tell me more about the Wadia 25. Thanks D
 
As Coops has already suggested I also think speakers are the place to start. Heres a few ideas from me.

With the money you have available and the fact you own a studio Modern horns and valves would perhaps form a good system for you that isnt too much of a busman holiday for you.

Audio Synthesis DAX decades an digital dac/preamp are currently available for £1250 direct from AS -These are part exchange units and represent a massive saving on list price - they are popular with forum members - I used to own one they are super neutral and top quality.

good luck and let us know what you decide

regards
Andy
 
With that kind of budget I'd be making my own speakers (6-7k), 2-3 on an amp, 2k on cd, 3k on LP.

However, I couldn't bring myself to spend that kind of money on hifi (unless I had money to burn)


nb the above would be a big 4 way horn loaded system. If I had a CD based system I'd take the opportunity to get a cheap record player and go record shopping with a few grand.
 
dominicT said:
Hi thanks for letting me know about the 840. The challenge will be that the dealers who stock the Cambridge do not stock the amp and speakers I am listening to so I will have to get it on loan. I will check out the 989 but having read a few reviews last night most commentators say that the 2905 has better bass and dynamics and the 2905 may or may not be dynamic enough for me.
Click to expand...

Dom
owned Quad 989's last summer,had a home demo with the 2905 and they are imho in a different league to the 989,tighter faster and more dynamic across the whole range the more modern look is also a bonus.
The only 2 caviats are I have found them amp fussy and I dont listen to full on rock music

If you decide on a demo,try pairing them with a Puresound A30
and any of the LSA amps both are a great pairing IMHO
IF your down my way your welcome to a listen
 
there's a lot of recent development in the field of computer playback, i wouldn't rush to buy a plain vanilla DAC no matter how "hi-end"-ish it may looks. a dutch manufacturer BD-Desing is just about to launch a rather revolutionary DAC that includes also a player for PC (don't know about apple platforms). it's interesting cause the player it includes is a hardware thing so what it actually does is pulling uncompressed files (wav) from your machine into the DAC and processing them there. the only reminder it's a PC playback is a little controller - like a real player or so - that you need to have installed on your machine to browse the files and give commands. the real benefit is that it's seen by your computer as an external USB device therefore the jitter introduced on the PC's side is much lower than in the case of all the current players (foobar etc) - hence much better SQ.
the DAC is called CrazyT, and the RRP should be around 2500 pounds. more details will be published soon at www.bd-design.nl (right you can only find a preliminary info on the forum there). a caveat is that it won't accept any other connection than USB-to-computer, so it can't be used as a standalone DAC for a plain CD transport, however it's supposed to be a final frontier of a PC playback, the best you can get for it on the market.
i'm afraid you may need to give up on i-tunes if you really want to push it to the limits but maybe i'm wrong here.
cheers.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
dominicT said:
Thanks for the tip. I have a studio so get to hear a pro dac almost every day. Which Dacs in particular do you think will give Wadia, Ayon etc a run for their money? D
Click to expand...

Dom, a studio what do you use for D/A ? I have been listening to a lot of cdp's recently most sound pretty much the same imho, a couple of very expensive players have been exceedingly disappointing ! Favourites so far have been the Lavry 924 ( £5.5k )and the MSB Platinum ( £3.5k ) the MSB has a passive volume control so it is more versatile, taking delivery of a Prism Da2 next week. so I am hoping to run a comparison,with a friends Esoteric X01 . If you are around you are more than welcome to pop over,Keith.
 
anubisgrau said:
there's a lot of recent development in the field of computer playback, i wouldn't rush to buy a plain vanilla DAC no matter how "hi-end"-ish it may looks. a dutch manufacturer BD-Desing is just about to launch a rather revolutionary DAC that includes also a player for PC (don't know about apple platforms). it's interesting cause the player it includes is a hardware thing so what it actually does is pulling uncompressed files (wav) from your machine into the DAC and processing them there. the only reminder it's a PC playback is a little controller - like a real player or so - that you need to have installed on your machine to browse the files and give commands. the real benefit is that it's seen by your computer as an external USB driver therefore the jitter introduced on the PC's side is much lower than in the case of all the current players (foobar etc) - hence much better SQ.
the DAC is called CrazyT, and the RRP should be around 2500 pounds. more details will be published soon at www.bd-design.nl (right you can only find a preliminary info on the forum there). a caveat is that it won't accept any other connection than USB-to-computer, so it can't be used as a standalone DAC for a plain CD transport, however it's supposed to be a final frontier of a PC playback, the best you can get for it on the market.
i'm afraid you may need to give up on i-tunes if you really want to push it to the limits but maybe i'm wrong here.
cheers.
Click to expand...

Anu doesn't the MSB 'I link' and the new Wadia dock do exactly the same thing ? The msb bypasses the onboard conversion, it is even wireless.
BD dense isn't that the guy who made your 'swinging' speakers?
 
coops said:
Anu doesn't the MSB 'I link' and the new Wadia dock do exactly the same thing ? The msb bypasses the onboard conversion, it is even wireless.
Click to expand...

Just to clarify, the MSB iLink requires a modded iPod so there goes your warranty, and it will not work with current generation units - the best sounding by all accounts.

FWIW, if I were spending that amount, I'd start with suitable speakers for my room. There is surprisingly little difference long term between digital front ends. Get the speakers and amplification sorted out first. If you like the Quads but find them too large and undynamic, you should really search out a pair of Merlin VSM MXE's if you can. Difficult to locate, they are very panel like, yet capable of greater dynamic expression. You should partner them with a Berning ZH270 of course and you will have world class sound for less than £7K + a digital front end like the Cambridge or, in that system, the Audio Aero. Listen to as many speakers in your room as you possibly can regardless of recommendations and the keyboard salesmen. Start from that premise and you won't go far wrong IME.
 
I'd recommend paying a visit to Kevin Scott at Definitive Audio, near Nottingham. I've heard a couple of cracking systems Kevin's put together at around your budget, the best of which IMO was LV Avatar OBX RW, Art Audio Argento amplifier, and Resolution Audio Opus CDP. Not cheap, but probably the best all round system I've heard.
 
from panels to boxes is quite a change, there are a few dealers in London that should be a able to give you a dem. abc-audio.co.uk in sounth London, Keith who does the MSB is worth a listen up in North London and Audioboffs just outside of london does Zingali and Audio Physic and demmed a pair of prototype speakers at the last heathrow Show which I thought were fantastic. I have a pair of second hand Marten Speakers which may be an option.

I like the merlins but when i got them in my house they just didn't seem to work. So they could be another option but I would recommend a home dem is possible.
 
Thanks for the responses so far. I agree with the statement about speakers being the priority and that is my main focus at the moment. Having said that there was a huge difference between Belcanto, Ayon and Accustic Arts CDPs listened through CODA amp and 2905s. The room that the speakers will be in will be treated so the room interaction is less of a concern but voicing and freedom of 'box' is paramount.

Some good suggestions about other bits of kit. I have been away from hifi for 2 years and am finding that I do not know 80% of the manufacturers at the high end!

Just to clarify a few other points. I will not be using an iPod in the home. I will though be using i-Tunes to control my playback because a) I like the interface, b) I use an i-Pod with uncompressed audio for the car and have another i-Pod with my entire library on for travelling and c) I own 3 Macs so it makes sense to use their software - I am into simplicity, reliability and am not 'technical' so hacking etc is not my thing; I am a musician first and foremost.

I am not interested in LPs at the moment, mainly because out of 300 LPs that I own, I only listened to 10 of them when I had my Pink Triangle. I may consider a T/T (seperate budget) if the digital route is found lacking for occasional fun or when I want to listen to Rice Crispiess (only kidding)

Am off to listen to some more kit today and will let you know how I get on.

Thanks again. D
 
coops said:
Dom, a studio what do you use for D/A ? I have been listening to a lot of cdp's recently most sound pretty much the same imho, a couple of very expensive players have been exceedingly disappointing ! Favourites so far have been the Lavry 924 ( £5.5k )and the MSB Platinum ( £3.5k ) the MSB has a passive volume control so it is more versatile, taking delivery of a Prism Da2 next week. so I am hoping to run a comparison,with a friends Esoteric X01 . If you are around you are more than welcome to pop over,Keith.
Click to expand...

Main system is Digidesign Pro Tools HD3 system and also an MBox Pro 2 for project work. Which pro dacs do you like? Have you listened to any ProTools gear in comparison? You can only buy it with ProTools recording software so it may not really be an option for hifi people.
 
Dom Hi, I only started to look at 'pro' gear because I was disappointed with really expensive 'audiophile' cdps , there are loads of threads on 'Gearslutz' about the best D/A A/D converters, so i decided to try and listen to as many as possible, be interesting to slot the MSB into your system, Keith.
 

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