cdp suggestions please

I have to say that I am not in the habit of throwing big money at cd players. I bought the ART V2 s/h; the sound that it produces is wonderful. What I want is to achieve similar results, and unfortunately buying new to accomplish that will cost quite a bit.

I have absolutely no desire to move to vinyl, although i realize that the results in sound would be worth the money.
 
Czechchris said:
I have to say that I am not in the habit of throwing big money at cd players. I bought the ART V2 s/h; the sound that it produces is wonderful.
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Really? I've just replaced a big TEAC with a small Marantz. Sounds exactly the same. And I couldn't tell the difference between the Marantz / TEAC and the Oppo (which is connected via HDMI to the TV then out via a pair of long, unbalanced analogue cables to the preamp).
As I said earlier, the sole beauty of subjectivism is that if you can convince yourself something expensive sounds better than something cheap, you also open the possibility to yourself of the opposite.
 
joel said:
As I said earlier, the sole beauty of subjectivism is that if you can convince yourself something expensive sounds better than something cheap, you also open the possibility to yourself of the opposite.
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I blame the upgrade ladder meself; you start off with something you are made to believe is 'good, but not quite good enough' and are led on, inexorably, in small but expensive steps, to the 'top' system, except that the manufacturer then pulls a flanker by releasing an even 'better' product, so your 'top' system is suddenly 'not quite good enough', and off you go again.

And a lot of the improvements from upgrading are in the mind; you've spent so much on this amp, it must be good; if it doesn't sound that great, well it needs to 'burn in' or maybe you should have sprung another few hundred pounds for that fancy mains lead, as the imperfections of the bog standard one are now being highlighted by your more 'transparent' system.

There is only one foolproof cure for this syndrome: bankruptcy, and a return to the cheap stuff that was probably good enough anyway.
 
I feel different transport can make a difference, but nowhere near as much as a DAC. So like others I would go for the transport that appeals most, a good DAC like a Lavry or ART-DIO and you may even come out with some change for cd's after you sell the V2.
 
I can see the point that you are trying to make, Joel and Joe, but I had changed cd players from my original 'upmarket' one, the Mission dad5/dac5, to the Cyrus cd7q with psx (an excellent player and arguably the best player Cyrus have made - although I haven't heard the new cd8xse model). When I heard the Audionet I was 'blown away' by it. I didn't pay new price (£2300) and probably would not have listened to it at that price, but it was far and away better than anything I had heard before - and I continue to have that opinion.
I compared its dac to a modified BelCanto dac 2 and the Audionet still impressed with its sense of realism in the music, the musicality and involvement. The BelCanto dac2 - imho - seemed to 'suck the life' out of the music.
Having experienced this sound, I don't want to settle for less, and if that means paying more money for a new machine then it will have to be so.
I certainly will not be paying money for the sake of it, on the assumption that it is expensive so it must be better.
The price I paid for the Audionet was reasonable - indeed less than the one technobear sold on this very forum - but the sound it produces is sublime.
 
Lets be frank there isn't a huge amount of difference between cdps , of all the players I have listened to a large majority sound pretty similar , and obviously the law of diminishing returns kicks in hard, but I have heard a few players that have greater resolution, presence and they grab your attention , make you want to listen , value for money is rather subjective isn't it.
 
Czechchris have you managed to audition anything? Can you please report findings?
 
Joe said:
I blame the upgrade ladder meself; you start off with something you are made to believe is 'good, but not quite good enough' and are led on, inexorably, in small but expensive steps, to the 'top' system, except that the manufacturer then pulls a flanker by releasing an even 'better' product, so your 'top' system is suddenly 'not quite good enough', and off you go again.

And a lot of the improvements from upgrading are in the mind; you've spent so much on this amp, it must be good; if it doesn't sound that great, well it needs to 'burn in' or maybe you should have sprung another few hundred pounds for that fancy mains lead, as the imperfections of the bog standard one are now being highlighted by your more 'transparent' system.

There is only one foolproof cure for this syndrome: bankruptcy, and a return to the cheap stuff that was probably good enough anyway.
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Quite a cynical view but you may be right. IMHO the best option is to think 'system' from the start. Discuss your requirements and budget with a dealer and let him select the kit that fits your brief and budget. How the hell are we to know that CDP #8 will be a perfect match for Amp #4 if Speakers #46 are in use with DIY silver cables? Why should we know, that is the dealers job. It becomes HIS problem to get you the sound YOU want. Trying to do all this yourself, on the cheap by buying from eBay etc. is usually the road to frustration and expensive mistakes. Spending a couple of hundred quid (over what you could have paid if you knew in time and bought from eBay) is the best value you will ever get from that money. IMHO of course.
 
kmac said:
Czechchris have you managed to audition anything? Can you please report findings?
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Not yet, kmac. I am going away for a few days holiday and will start more in earnest after that, and after the ART V2 arrives back from Germany. This will give me both time, and the opportunity to compare with my existing player.

Having looked at the specs and connections on some dacs that have been suggested, I think the cdp route is the way I will go, rather than cheap transport/dearer dac. (Another factor is the need to integrate the speakers as the fronts in my av system too.)

My wife and I discussed this over the last few days and she is happier with that option, too. The Audionet ART G2 is looking favourite on paper, but the proof of the pudding is in the ear of the beholder.........or something like that!
 
I agree with rocker,for the most part and a little bit with joe. It may be that because the improvements are smaller and smaller and sometimes only a difference rather than an improvement that many get frustrated . It is also a fact that many have damaged hearing and can never hear the improvements above a certain level .

Caution and care and a lot of patience will reward the diligent with a great system and cheap skate activity i.e buying blind on flea -bay will only result by a miracle in a great sounding system .
However some do manage in an ad-hoc way to put a good system together , but i think there is a lot of failure and frustration going down this road.

There is also a case for asking ,what is good system ? Is it one you love,one that measures well,one that reproduces some music well or all types well ? To many give into paranoia and become obsessive rather than enjoying this hobby . A lot of money can be wasted and it should not be . Cultivate a good,flexible relationship with a dealer (good one) and buy when and only when you are happy. BUT DON'T USE HIM AND THEN BUY ON FLEA-BAY ,I THINK THIS IS APPALLING. IF A MAN IS WORTH ,HIS WAGE THEN PAY HIM IT. AFTER ALL IMAGINE HOW YOU WOULD FEEL IF THIS WAS YOUR JOB AND LIVING ?!

czechchris another thought ,if you could find an Abbingdon Music Research AMR cd77 at a good price ,ex demo . This is an amazing cd player ,see 6 moons for reviews and hi-fi + .

Regards D Louth
 
I had a Copland 823, when I bought it a dealer and a couple of people mentioned the Audionet as a similar machine. I never got a chance to hear it. I had probs with the Copland and in the end I moved it on and bought a Wadia 301. Its not pretty but is in a different league performance wise. Far more organic. Not that I'd have said so after switch on. It takes a few days to warm up. Nordost Pulsar Points on a Audiophile Base and a decent power cord have all added icing to its particular cake. Well worth an audition. There still seem to be dealers around with ex-dems, safer than s/h. Having said that there are dealers doing 860s for £3.5k. I've not heard one but you don't hear much bad said of them. Happy hunting.
 
Hi coops

The problem, if there is one with the amr, is the amount of running in it needs. If the dealer hasn't given it about 800 hours of run in ,then he is wasting your time and his . I bought only the second full production unit available in the UK awhile ago and from new i wondered what i had done .I had not heard it except at a show and thought it was poor (London Heathrow show two years ago). To say i was disappointed would be putting it mildly .But on the basis of 6 moons review , i bought one . (I know i have said elsewhere on ZG ,that this is a stupid thing to do;and it can be)
And at the start i thought i had stuffed up big time . However after a lot of running in (lots of dealers don't run stuff in enough)i was amazed by this machine . The RCA out puts sound better than the XLR and i think master setting 2 sounds best (in my systems).

It can be a bit fussy about mains leads(i have used TCI BOA and Audience AU and Analysis plus oval 2)and it depends on weather i am using the main system or the upstairs one as to which is better .The interconnects have in either set up been Audience AU24 . For isolation i have been using Clearlight RDC Table or platforms and some little wood blocks which AMR have been playing around with ,these are good under other bits of kit too.

I think it is frightening just how many dealers don't understand the kit they sell or run it in properly . coops i suggest you try and hear the AMR again but only if what i have said has been done .
The AMR has a focus and magic in the mid that beats my Moon Andromeda ,however the Moon has a bigger soundstage and a bit more depth of image . But is it twice as good (twice the price) i would have to say not. IMHO the AMR cd 77 is one of the biggest bargains in Audio at the present ,if it is run in right and it suits your system or ears .

defrides comments on his wadia would be different if his 301 had not been run in .Wadia cd players sound poor until they have had at least a month of run in and dealers selling them should keep them powered up all the time (Moon is the same). But run in they are very good ,but very different in sound to Moon and AMR. I would have bought an 861se if they had still been available ,as until i had the Moon in my system i thought the Wadia 861 was for me .

Regards D Louth
 
D I am not here to run down cd players. Matthew lent me the AMR I was seriously considering selling it, it looked good ,appeared very well made it seemed to have everything 6 different filter options, even a neat remote unfortunately I found the sound very disappointing. Keith.
 
Hi coops

No certainly not ,but i think it is possible to have a discussion about what we like and don't like about the sound of various things without it becoming a slagging match (which it should never be).

However i respect your right not to discuss it .I have no axe to grind about the AMR i like it a lot ,but system synergy can make and break items that perform better or worse in different settings and other peoples experiences can be very useful;i think!

Your ALLNIC products look good ,where are they made ? Their website doesn't seem to be working right but the absorb-gel looks very interesting ?

Regards D Louth
 
D Hi you are right the example I borrowed may not have been run in or simply not representative , over that time I tried to listen to as many CDP's as possible, looking for a really good product to sell, I had heard the lavry 924 dac in my system and thought it really very good , I sort of came to the conclusion that a seperate ( really good ) dac offered better value and longevity compared to an expensive player.
One day perhaps we will have to compare the Stahl-Tek and the AMR, re Allnic Mr Park is Korean, his former designs for 'Silvaweld' were highly thought of, there is a review by Brad Morrical of the Silvaweld and Kondo M7 , all the transformers are made entirely in house, they are as good as any amp I have heard ( although I suppose I would say that ) very best,Keith.
 
Hi coops

The stand alone dac is a great possibility if your transport is very good . Those who say transports don't matter have not ,i think tried enough. I am playing around with an 18 year old Sony DAS 1 DAC part of the Sony R1 2 box player . I have always wanted to hear one as i am a fan of the philips tda 1541 dac module and this DAC has 2 s1 crown versions. I have so far compared it to the Marantz SA7 (playing cds) and the Marantz as transport ,with the Sony. Very interesting despite being 18 year old technology ,the difference between the two was not as massive as i thought . The Marantz has a warmer ,fuller presentation ,but the Sony-Marantz paring has a very engaging sound that while slightly less rich in the mid ,overall offers a very good sound . A week of warm up on the Sony will tell the tale as these TDA 1541 dacs need at least a week of warm up . The Sony transport is so far not working (pity it was wrecked by a well known ,after market tweaker, who according to my engineer isn't half as clever as he thinks he is.). Maybe he can fix it ,(the Sony doesn't belong to me). The AMR and Moon beat both ,but this is just a bit of historical listening as it had been a very long time since i had heard a Sony R1 mk1.

Anyway i know this is of subject but the importance of transports and dac combinations is important . I have tried various ones over the years Micomega Data, Audiomeca Mephisto ,various Marantz's
and many i forgotten about. Always though the difference got by changing the transport and the cable used was a revelation . We now know the reasons for this (jitter ,etc),but the actual mechanics ,structural design etc are fasinating parts of the picture too.

I think you should try another AMR i know that there was a bit of in-consistant with the early pre production machines hence my waiting for a production one . Yes a shoot out against your dac would be interesting but the AMR can't be used as a transport as it has no dig out(its only weakness). Thanks for the info on allnic ,i like the look of the amps on your website.

I may contact you to ask about the tube dampers they do.

Regards D Louth
 
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