Damn this is good!

[merlin]

Just thought I'd share this with you guys

Been listening to the system the last few of nights, stabilised since the arrival of some new cables which needed to run in.

Well I have to say, this makes damned fine music For me, it's like listening to the original Quad 57's but with real world dynamic range and bass thwack. That for me means it is near perfection to my ears.

It's not just the Tact equipment, some of you have heard it in it's infancy and been underwhelmed I know It's the result of nine months tweaking, both the cabling, positioning, and working on the PC programming.

But hell, sitting listening tonight, it's all worthwhile deep bass, real PraT, wonderful soundstage and the naturalness of those venerable Quads

Does make me think that most systems I hear are unnaturally bright and thin though, Quad owners will know what I mean

And to think I'm breaking this music maker up in the next month or so

 

[wadia-miester]

Merlin, it's always the way, just get it sounding the way you like it and, then some thing comes along and causes a total rethink.
I have to say I had a quick listen to Merlin's system a couple of weeks ago (he has changed a few more cables and such like since) and It's no secret I was impressed by the image and stage wow factor before but was left unmoved by the bounce and involvement fact.
Well the balance has been redressed pretty nicely, lots of presence and nice deep tight Timed bass, with big open abienece and nice organics, selfless to say, more to my liking, proberbly more so now since the Lord of the serpents took up residence.
So glad it's comie together, and good luck on your 'different project' WM

 

[voodoo]

Originally posted by merlin
And to think I'm breaking this music maker up in the next month or so

Pray tell Merlin, what changes are on the horizon ?

My own re-build and Tact purchasing shall commence in exactly 1 month .

 

[Robbo]

Merlin,

Good to read that things are coming together. I will have to pay a visit to yours for another listen sometime - on the one condition that you come over to listen to my system as well

Robbo

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by wadia-miester
more to my liking, proberbly more so now since the Lord of the serpents took up residence.

Too right WM, the addition of the King Cobra and Proac response really was like throwing a switch when it came to rythmn, now I get this PRaT stuff

Well, I just wanted to share the moment so to speak!!!

The new project is well on the way, the JBL's arrived this morning Never realised a bass unit could weigh 40lbs these muthers kick arse just sitting in their shipping cartons.

Yesterday bought the amp to drive the bass units, a Crown K1 350wpc into eight (1100wpc bridged), damping factor greater than 3000:1, and cool running class D technology. Titian might be interested to know that some Nestorovic users employ such a digital amp on their subwoofers to great effect.

Cheers

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by Robbo
on the one condition that you come over to listen to my system as well
Robbo

Neil, very keen to hear your Proacs, how hot is your living room at the moment

 

[Robbo]

Very cool actually. As it is north facing, it never gets too warm even in this weather. Cant do anthying this week though.

Robbo

 

[penance]

erm
at the risk of showing myself as a noob

would someone enlighten me as to what PRaT means/stands for



/me hides from the laughing crowd

 

[Robbo]

Pace, Rhythm and Timing. Very important for conveying the passion and spirit in the music IMO. This is what the flat earth crowd find most important.

 

[penance]

ah-ha

well put like that it makes perfect sense


um, does that mean im edgeing towards a flat earth

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by Robbo
Very cool actually. Robbo

So maybe a poll of previous visitors is in order, to find out just how "cool" your living room is

My take on PRaT is your system has it when you put on an unfamiliar piece of music and your subconcious just knows where the rythmn is going in advance. There is zero effort required to feel the flow of the music. Nice really, provided this quality doesn't screw up everything else when you want to listen more critically.

 

[Robbo]

Of course, I was meaning in the thermal sense and not the stylish sense. I suspect that my room would be rather uncool in that sense.

 

[Matt F]

Originally posted by merlin
The new project is well on the way, the JBL's arrived this morning Never realised a bass unit could weigh 40lbs these muthers kick arse just sitting in their shipping cartons.

Yesterday bought the amp to drive the bass units, a Crown K1 350wpc into eight (1100wpc bridged), damping factor greater than 3000:1, and cool running class D technology.

Huge over-engineered drivers? 1kW + class D digital amps? That all sounds very familiar

Of course you could have saved yourself all the hassle and simply bought a you know what from you know who

No, actually, you couldn't have could you? :newbie:

Matt.

 

[merlin]

Actually Matt, I could have gone the Velodyne route, and did indeed get a demo (although not from Uncle Fester)

Different requirements really Matt. Music as opposed to movies, the JBL's can be crossed over at 800hz, thereby performing as an active bass module for a true three way array. They also don't really do infrasonics, they are designed to be powerful and uncoloured from say 30hz upwards.

For movies I cannot knock the Velodynes, excellent extension and clean undistorted sound. Unfortunately for me personally, they don't really cut it in high end two channel, the initial impulse response is poor (no doubt due to the heavy surround that clearly benefits the AV performance) and I didn't find the quality of the bass to be sufficiently musical.

So I guess it's just a case of different needs really Matt, plus a pair of HGS15's replacements would cost considerably more, and include rather crude digital ParEq which of course, I do not need.

 

[Matt F]

Originally posted by merlin
For movies I cannot knock the Velodynes, excellent extension and clean undistorted sound. Unfortunately for me personally, they don't really cut it in high end two channel, the initial impulse response is poor (no doubt due to the heavy surround that clearly benefits the AV performance) and I didn't find the quality of the bass to be sufficiently musical.

I can see the potential problems with high crossovers but I must confess that, if we are talking lower crossovers (80Hz or below) then I can't see how a sub with low distortion can be bad with music.

You mention poor initial impulse response which confuses me a little as, surely, if a sub has minimal distortion (e.g. 0.5% or less in the case of the big Velodynes) then it must respond as quickly as the musical note requires otherwise the output signal is not matching the input signal and, hey presto, you have distortion. I also understand that bass notes under a given frequency don't even require a particularly fast response as the rise in the actual sine wave is slow anyway ââ'¬â€œ I'm getting out of my depth with this kind of analysis to be honest though.

Nic Rhodes (who you probably know from avforums and who owns Servo 15's and an REL Stentor amongst others) put a good post on hifichoice forums the other day about low distorting subs with music ââ'¬â€œ basically he was countering the criticism by some that the likes of the monster Paradigm Servo 15 is not too good with music. His conclusion (as an engineer and as a hifi enthusiast) is that the Servo 15 has everything needed to play music accurately so, if it is not doing so, then it is the set up (positioning, integration etc) that is at fault, not the sub itself. Interesting enough, like yourself, Nic appears to have now taken the DIY route with subs. To those who don't know ââ'¬â€œ he's not the keyboard player from Duran Duran!

Anyway ââ'¬â€œ Nic's post is here: http://forum.hifichoice.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=6272

I am hoping to be able to prove what he says in a week or so when I will be getting a Servo 15 (assuming Richer's come up with the goods) ââ'¬â€œ yes, I'm afraid the HGS15 had to go (for financial reasons) .

Finally, with note to your comments about the big Velo not being ââ'¬Å"musicalââ'¬Â I've got this theory (which is probably completely flawed) about ââ'¬Å"musicalââ'¬Â subs. It all stems from a post I read about someone who had auditioned both a Velodyne HGS10 and one of the cheaper SPL range. Although he recognised that the HGS was a superior sub on paper, he went for the SPL because, certainly for music, he preferred the harmonics (distortion) that it gave (which, of course, the HGS would cancel out).

So the theory goes that, unless I am mistaken, many, if not all, hifi speakers produce a fair amount of harmonic distortion and this is perfectly pleasant to the ear. Present someone with a subwoofer that plays completely cleanly and some will not like this as it may appear too clinical for music ââ'¬â€œ a bit like monitor speakers ââ'¬â€œ very accurate but, to some, a little soulless.

Matt.

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by Matt F
You mention poor initial impulse response which confuses me a little as, surely, if a sub has minimal distortion (e.g. 0.5% or less in the case of the big Velodynes) then it must respond as quickly as the musical note requires otherwise the output signal is not matching the input signal and, hey presto, you have distortion. Matt.

Hi Matt, I won't comment in depth regarding the Velodyne as in truth there are people out there with far more experience of it. Measurements done over in Scandinavia however show that the HGS is slow to react initially. This is no doubt due to the physical construction of the drive unit, which has a large mm due to the need for stiffness. The roll surround is also increadibly thick and heavy, neccessary due to the use of a small sealed enclosure and the requirement for the sub to output below resonance. This will not affect the distortion figures when feeding a sinewave through the HGS, but will aledgedly, affect the performance in the time domain on music programme. Think of getting a Hummer up to speed rather than a Lotus Elise. All I can say for certain is, that I did not like the performance, the evidence came to me second hand and at a later stage.

Finally, with note to your comments about the big Velo not being ââ'¬Å"musicalââ'¬Â I've got this theory (which is probably completely flawed) about ââ'¬Å"musicalââ'¬Â subs. It all stems from a post I read about someone who had auditioned both a Velodyne HGS10 and one of the cheaper SPL range. Although he recognised that the HGS was a superior sub on paper, he went for the SPL because, certainly for music, he preferred the harmonics (distortion) that it gave (which, of course, the HGS would cancel out).

I am not sure Matt. I personally attribute musicality with timing, the ability to hear the flow of the music. This would have more to do with flat frequency response and fast impulse response although low distortion is indeed a prerequisite. For me, without the need or desire to feel a 5hz rumble at 95db, the best design of sub would be a drive unit with a large magnet and very low moving mass, placed in an adequately sized cabinet. This is of course the exact opposite of the Velodyne approach, but then my JBL's and the likes of B&W, Velodyne, and Paradyme, have very different design goals.