Dem booked - speakers etc advice sought!

domfjbrown

domfjbrown

live & breathe psy-trance
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<cross posted from the Naim forum>

Right... My Epos ES14s sound OK-ish on the back of my NAIT3, but there's a slight mid colouration and limited bass. The mid is (I think) down to the amp's 30 watts, the lack of bass is DEFINITELY down to the open-frame stands dumping all bass energy into the springy suspended floor.

Anyway, I'm juggling finances around (BONUS TIME!!!) and I've booked a dem at Audio-Excellence in Exeter on Saturday.

I'm going to be starting with the NAIT5/CD5+Flatcap (he has both still on dem), and listening to the Dynaudio Audience 42s (as they've always sounded excellent to me)....

Now here's the thing; springy suspended floor, speakers HAVE to back onto glass window (no option for solid walls!) and limited to NAIT3's power envelope. The room is about 4 metres by 4.5 metres at a guess...

The dealer's got a couple of other things potentially lined up - including a NAC92/NAP90/Flatcap (tempting, but I guess that's barely more powerful than what I have, and maybe chucking more watts at a bass hole is a bad move?).

What I figure is if I go the Dynaudio route and get their dedicated stands - if the stands are filled with sand or whathaveyou, they'd be less likely to feed all the bass from the speakers into the floor, which seems to be the Epos' (and my Rega Elas and MS25is', due to their light weight) downfall. Am I correct in that? Of course, that might be negated by the fact that they're rear ported and like being in front of a solid wall, NOT a glass window...

So, is a bigger amp likely to be a better move, or easier-to-integrate and drive speakers than the Epos', on heavy stands?

I guess my options can include:
92/90
or one of:
Dynaudio Audience 42+stands
KEF Q3
KEF Q5
B&W CM2+stands
ProAc Tablette 2000+stands
Naim Arriva???? (amp too weedy for these?? rear wall??)

...or maybe even just saying sod it and getting a decent REL or MJ Acoustics sub?

The Epos' spacial and treble response is fine - it's just that damn bass. In fact, I've had problems with bass on systems I've owned for nearly a decade now - and it's come to the crunch.

Of course, I'm open to suggestions. I don't think the budget for this can be more than a grand at the very most. I might not even walk away with anything... ...but I should be able to home dem.

A source upgrade is not an option, as I get this bass situation on all sources, and the CD5/Flatcap sounds great and is only 6 months old!

Oh - btw - the Epos' sound much better when the NAIT's cranked, but it's too loud for the terraced housing I'm in (which at least is Victorian with hall-lounge-hall-lounge style arrangement), so low level listening with still-decent (ie not freezing cold!) sound is important.

BTW Tone - the NAIT3 sounds nice and sweet in the treble with the Epos - believe it or not :)
 
i'd look into something to sort out your springy floor first. as you mentioned elsewhere mana might be worth a try - or you could try a couple of argos's finest granite chopping boards under the stands. alternatively rip up the floorboards and fill the space between the real ground and the floorboards with breezeblocks so you have a solid area under your speakers - a bit drastic though.
doubt a sub is a good idea in your circumstances. try a decently sensitive 2.5 way floorstander like a b&w 600 series or similar my nait 5 was fine driving my cdm7's (which you might also find within your budget) but they do need room to breathe. they love infected mushroom though.
cheers


julian
 
julian2002 said:
try a decently sensitive 2.5 way floorstander like a b&w 600 series or similar my nait 5 was fine driving my cdm7's (which you might also find within your budget) but they do need room to breathe. they love infected mushroom though.
Click to expand...

MMMM - I don't know if A-X have them in stock, but worth asking... Infected Mushroom sound great even on totally cold straight out of the box Naim CD5s :) I bet they'd still sound great on my old Sony midi system... :)

As for the floor - I can't do anything to that, as the house is rented. I did SERIOUSLY wander about Mana soundbases under the Epos' as this would be easily affordable and a nice solution, but I reckon the NAIT'S limited power into the 8inch bass drivers isn't the best move! I wander whether Naim "chips" under the Epos' stands would work though, as I bet some of the spikes are not making contact with the floorboards under the carpet...
 
dom,
the naits have very 'stiff' power supplies so that when low impedance bass demands crop up they can deliver serious watts into 4, 2 or 1 ohm. i doubt your nait is crumbling under the load unless it has a problem or you are playing at ridiculous volumes. if you like the epos's then keep them and look into positioning (see if you can put the stand spikes over the floor joists) and supports to fix the boom. if you aren;t happy with them i'd take a look at the pro-ac's. don;t know if you've heard robbo's but they have a wonderful midrange and very respectible treble.
cheers


julian
 
julian2002 said:
if you aren;t happy with them i'd take a look at the pro-ac's. don;t know if you've heard robbo's but they have a wonderful midrange and very respectible treble.
Click to expand...

The Epos' are fine - I've heard them on the back of Henryt's rig, so I know they work OK :) It's the room I think; re the floor joists - hmm, will have to do some digging there. I'm wandering seriously about M*n* soundbases - will see what's what on Saturday anyway :)

Open to other suggestions (god, those Arrivas are expensive - wander what they sound like???)
 
julian2002 said:
dom,
the naits have very 'stiff' power supplies so that when low impedance bass demands crop up they can deliver serious watts into 4, 2 or 1 ohm. i doubt your nait is crumbling under the load unless it has a problem or you are playing at ridiculous volumes.
julian
Click to expand...


If thats the case why bother with a bigger amp at all?

The Epos are not an easy speaker to drive and only really sing on a 250 or even better. At that point they become a great speaker imho. The Nait is a great little amp but it is being asked far too much of.

Cheers

Jason
 
...this is my theory too. Like I say, man, they sounded ACE on the back of Henryt's Belcanto :)

I'm still sure a lot of bass is going through the floor (I'd rather keep the amp and go for more accommodating speakers, as that'll be cheaper in the long run!). The 92/90/FC is tempting though; it's bound to be newer than my NAIT so might not need recapping just yet :)
 
IIRC the 92 is simply the preamp section of the Nait you already have. Apparently you can convert a Nait into a preamp with a bit of link cutting, that would free up some cash to buy a more powerful amp if need be. But doing something to sort out the room might be a better option.

-- Ian
 
jason,
i would think that would be more down to the quality of the amplification - as you know the 250 is a better amp intrinsicly than the nait's and nothing to do with watt's. fro example the lavardin is is only 30wpc and yet gets rave reviews by mags and owners alike.
dom said that he was listening at lowish levels so rather than splash on new speakers / amps he may want to investigate other causes of his problems. of course if dom wants new speakers / amps then he should get them. i'd say a 72/hi/250 with proac's like robbos would be a superb system.
cheers

julian
 
The 90/92 is basically a Nait 3 in two boxes. I found this out when I was looking into Naim. You get more bang for your buck looking at things like the 32/62/72 crossed with a 110/140. You could get your Nait 3 turned into a pre-amp, and then look at power supplies and power amps. It is I believe just a little snip.
I think your problem is though the floor. If you can get hold of them try those Argos bases. If you don't like them what have you wasted? £25........If it works you could then try the Mana. You could try your Rega's on it as well, you might find that they work better under those circumstances.
Otherwise different standmounts could help, but you'll need to try them, it sounds like you have a specific problem.
Have you tried your Kyte's in there?
 
Hi Dom , if you want to control the bass going into the floor knock up some cheapo air platforms .(2 concrete slabs and a couple of inner tubes)

I,d try this first and then make descisions about whether you swap them out for some soundbases or a new amp .
atb
richard
 
julian2002 said:
jason,
i would think that would be more down to the quality of the amplification - as you know the 250 is a better amp intrinsicly than the nait's and nothing to do with watt's. fro example the lavardin is is only 30wpc and yet gets rave reviews by mags and owners alike.
dom said that he was listening at lowish levels so rather than splash on new speakers / amps he may want to investigate other causes of his problems. of course if dom wants new speakers / amps then he should get them. i'd say a 72/hi/250 with proac's like robbos would be a superb system.
cheers

julian
Click to expand...

True, true, but the Lavardin for one needs efficient speakers or else you have to listen at very low levels, that was my finding with it. Interestingly the Sugdne AMPMaster with a very low paper outptut coped betetr with my speakers, largely because it has a faster and better power supply. There are some real limits and imho Dom's Nait will always be struggling to get to grips with the Epos speakers. Also the lesser Naim amps don't recover from transient demands half as well as the bigger amps and that is the key parameter. In other words followng a drum hit or similar it takes the Nait longer to settle back down than it would take a 140 and even longer than a 250. If other demands are made during the settling then the amp is continually struggling. At the end of the day the ES14's demand really good quality amps.

Cheers

Jason
 
Hmm - so the concensus seems to be that I'd need a super-amp to get the Epos' to work... Ahem. I think then, it'll be a case of trying out some kind of isolation, though I do think the Elas are too forward in that room with that amp. If I could borrow SoundBases from someone I'd definitely like to give them a go, but I'm unsure of ordering them "blind", refund or no refund.

The Kytes will be a disaster - they need a solid wall behind them to stop acting like flamethrowers!

Are the ProAcs hard to drive? I assume so... The Dyns (in the last two dems) always amazed me by what they could produce - though of course this was in a room where they were right up near the back wall. In my case, there's only a back window ;)

The marble slabs from Argos are too small for the Epos stands - they're something like 14x14 inches spike to spike! I like the Epos' mid transparency though - wander what their baby 11 (or 12x) brothers would sound like in that room - better than Dynaudio?
 
How dare people suggest Mana soundbases when I'm not looking? FWIW my old Epos 22s responded very well. Much cheaper than changing the amp or speakers, and then at least you'll know where you are, so to speak.

They are a bit tricky to set up, take your time.
 
From experience of moving from a Nait to a Nap 200, I really would be surprised if it would be capable of solving room acoustics problems. Yes it will add control and dynamics, but resolving a room bass boost?? Doesn't seem likely.

I'd suggest that you start cheap and work on bases for the speakers first. A couple of concrete slabs from B&Q will be a cheapy start and if they don't work, will only have cost you £3. They helped in my old flat. Maybe multiple slabs might work (bit like mana stages, but in concrete). For the cost, give it a try, at least you can use them to pave your lawn if they don't work.
 
Why not put a pair of pavement slabs underneath the stands as a test for your springy floor ruining bass theory (which it seems is likely) - if this works then get a pair of mana sound bases.
 
domfjbrown said:
Right... My Epos ES14s sound OK-ish on the back of my NAIT3, but there's a slight mid colouration and limited bass. The mid is (I think) down to the amp's 30 watts, the lack of bass is DEFINITELY down to the open-frame stands dumping all bass energy into the springy suspended floor.
Click to expand...

Here's the thing: I've never heard the Eposes, but I'm told they're great. Only thing is, are they ever really going to give you actual deep bass? I'd suggest probably not - which is presumably a bad thing for your music tastes. If you really want bass extension, I'd be inclined to look at some nice big floorstanders.
 
Dom,

You've said yourself the room is the problem.

You might want new boxes, but a big thick rug on the floor (the bigger and thicker the better, and another on that glass wall behind the speakers would do more than any amp change IMHO

I remember living in rented accomodation in Edinburgh with bare floorboards a few years ago, and I sympathise. I went from a pair of standmounts to a big pair of floorstanders and it still sounded bad. Youve got to get to the root of the problem IMHO..

Those nice thick rugs can come with you if you move, and ladies like a nicely done up room ;)

NB If you cant afford a thick rug, go for a big thin one and lay a couple of layers of carpet underlay underneath.

Thats my 2p
 
Dom doesn't listen at headbanging levels and doesn't require ultra extended bass (especially if it subjectively slows the pace down). Therefore I'd doubt if the Nait is struggling to deliver the good either, given the volume levels involved.

I'd agree with looking at the room acoustics and isolation first before spending any money on kit.

However, if replaced speakers were the order of the day (after having looked at the acoustics first), I'd put money on a of pair of posh mini monitors plus possibly open frame stands fitting the bill - oh and preferably sealed box or maybe front ported/transmission line (but not rear ported). Are the Proac Tablette 8's sealed or rear ported, difficult to tell from the Proac website? Having said that, Robbo's 1SC's worked well at Julian's with their ports firing at close range to a window.
 

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