Demagnetising LP's & cd's

blackdog said:
If someone feels "pressured" to buy and knuckles under, thats' a personal problem which the individual needs to address with therapy. The consumer always had the upper hand (money) and always will.
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No, no - Source First .

Being influenced by pressure is a well known and extremely common human condition.
Suggesting that, in effect, most of the developed world seek therapy is dodging the issue.

Manipulative forces within the industry are the problem - the source of the problem.

Of course not everyone sees this as a problem. It is perfectly ok IMO to suggest that the buyers get what they deserve. Not a view I support thought.
 
blackdog said:
Rob,

It's hifi--not life or death. If you feel pressured when you're buying hifi and can't overcome it, you need therapy.

best,

dave
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Not so.

The same pressures and spin techniques are in operation regardless of whether you are choosing hi-fi, bank accounts, insurance, utilities or a car.

Spin/sales pressure is always wrong because it places someone else's needs and priorities above those of the buyer. it seeks to influence in favour of the former by going further than simply presenting the required information to allow the buyer to make the decision.

It can be as brutal or subtle as you like, but always wrong IMO.
 
blackdog said:
Fnuckle,

All this "hate" regarding manufacturers for succeding is the bit that I don't get. It's the same with Microsoft vs The Rest of The World. For Christ's sakes, it's only hifi and computers.

If the magazines drove what the shops stocked in the UK then the problem lies with the shop. Hifi reviewing magazines have always been and will always be a complete waste of paper. If a shop knuckled under to what a magazine dictates instead of demonstrating the difference between gear, then they deserve to flounder and go out of business. We can agree, the consumer is the loser in this case but let's put the blame where it really belongs which is shops that are too lazy to overcome a hurdle.

Regarding the tune dem and odd time signatures unrelated -I disagree. I find Messiaen and Varese even more enjoyable with my Naim rig.

regards,

dave
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I don't have any great animosity toward Linn or Naim. They were only doing their jobs. I did have at the time though, because I was there at the time and still had a nasty slice of integrity lodged in the back of my head. I didn't like the not so veiled "you do thousands of pounds with us, but if you start stocking products from Brand X, you can kiss that goodbye." I objected to the change to Top-Down selling, where if some poor sap walked in for a blank tape, they'd be played a full active Linn system to get them on message, and heaven help them if they said they didn't like it... that lead to square bashing and getting them to march in time to the music. And I seriously objected to finding the order book prefilled by the rep with no mind or understanding of what the local climate could stand. "Our people buy Naits and Obelisk 2s and OA21s... not any more, you have 20 Inteks to shift."

-

I guess you just opened an old wound.
 
These things are all essentially the vile consequences of Capitalism, where profit is the primary mover.

Well, we've gone from demagnetising vinyl to the state of the industry in the 1980, why not look at the bigger picture :)
 
Question for Fnuckle.

Do you view Linn and Naim as equally culpable for the worst excesses of the flat earth years?
 
blackdog said:
If someone feels "pressured" to buy and knuckles under, thats' a personal problem which the individual needs to address with therapy. The consumer always had the upper hand (money) and always will.

I've never lived closer than two hundred miles of more than two dealers. If I wanted to try something neither dealer stocked, I'd call the manufacturer and get a phone number to the nearest stockist. I'd have the dealer ship the item to me for evaluation and either return or buy it. Occasionally I'd drive as much as five hours one way to dem gear.

Regardless, the telephone and automobile were available in 1970 and are still working solutions. I'm sure the same existed in the UK then and now. Lack of easy availability and "pressure" is no excuse.

regards,

dave
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That's a rather dreadful mind-set you have there. Little old dear pays out her life savings to some doorstepping rogue who tells her that her roof is about to fall in... it's granny's fault.

And I seriously question the availability issue. Part of the problem was the cookie-cutter store that arose from this. It was easy; read Hi-Fi Answers, The Flat Response or Hi-Fi Review, pick the half-dozen brands listed in the back as the only 'real' hi-fi, open up a shop with an appropriately quirky three-word company name. Borrow one of the preset dismissals of any rival product - 'pipe and slippers', 'valves... they went out with the ark', 'doesn't play a tune' - and away you go. Hire someone a bit mechanically savvy to learn how to set up a turntable and make sure everyone in the building treats this like some kind of dark art. Instant flat-earth store.

Because it was so easy it was everywhere. A telephone and a car don't mean much if virtually all the stores in the area stock exactly the same stuff.
 
blackdog said:
Sorry to oepn old wounds Fnuckle...sounds like you had a jerk for a rep.
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They were all jerks, trained and brainwashed to be. They all started as salesmen in Linn shops and their one aim was to become accepted and get their dream job, rep-ing for Linn. They believed it.

Anyway you should see from your old post about dealers and 200mile drives that the two markets were / are poles apart, yours was far more normal and undistorted, apart from the brainwash that all americans have. You are brought up on "never mind the taste, sell the sizzle". But you will deny it, as that is what good brainwashing does. That is why you cannot produce good cars, because it was / is a showroom salesmen and commission led industry!
 
RobHolt said:
Question for Fnuckle.

Do you view Linn and Naim as equally culpable for the worst excesses of the flat earth years?
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I'd call it a perfect storm of companies doing what companies do, helped by magazines that sacrificed their impartiality (and their future reputation) and followed the path with a fundamentalist fervour, and dealers who saw this as a way of easy money without needing to think about personal brand building.

The fact that it worked, helped, of course.

Ultimately, this is past news. Both Linn and Naim today are very different entities. The magazines over-reacted to the polemic of those days and are now scared to draw a conclusion - and those that would try to do this are the nail that gets hammered down. But perhaps the biggest echo is with the dealers who still cling to past glories. Their initial brand strategy is untenable these days, but many lack the foresight to move on. So, they are stuck, a bit like the characters in the Ashes to Ashes series. Only without a Quattro to fire up.
 
Fnuckle,

Unlike dear old granny, hifis are bought mostly by middle-aged guys who should know better.

You know, our shop used to get HF answers, HF news, What HF, etc back during the dark ages of Linn and I don't recall a shortage of round earth shop adverts at all.

regards,

dave
 
Richard Dunn said:
They were all jerks, trained and brainwashed to be. They all started as salesmen in Linn shops and their one aim was to become accepted and get their dream job, rep-ing for Linn. They believed it.

Anyway you should see from your old post about dealers and 200mile drives that the two markets were / are poles apart, yours was far more normal and undistorted, apart from the brainwash that all americans have. You are brought up on "never mind the taste, sell the sizzle". But you will deny it, as that is what good brainwashing does. That is why you cannot produce good cars, because it was / is a showroom salesmen and commission led industry!
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We're in total agreement about Americans being brought up on "never mind the taste, sell the sizzle". Probably the reason why I detest sales and most salesmen. However, I find enjoyment in Linn and Naim gear and more use in their suggestion that an enjoyable rig is more important than whether one rig has more or less bass and treble than another.
 
RobHolt said:
Not so.

The same pressures and spin techniques are in operation regardless of whether you are choosing hi-fi, bank accounts, insurance, utilities or a car.

Spin/sales pressure is always wrong because it places someone else's needs and priorities above those of the buyer. it seeks to influence in favour of the former by going further than simply presenting the required information to allow the buyer to make the decision.

It can be as brutal or subtle as you like, but always wrong IMO.
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Rob,

I didn't say the technique wasn't wrong. (To be honest, I don't hold much regard for most in the sales field period)

What I'm saying is if you can't overcome someone trying to sell you something you so unimportant in life as a hifi you are disfunctional and should head to the nearest clinic for professional help.

regards,

dave

P.S. I agree impartiality should be the rule during a presentation but few seem to know how to do this whether they be flat earth or round earth salesmen.
 
blackdog said:
Rob,

I didn't say the technique wasn't wrong. (To be honest, I don't hold much regard for most in the sales field period)

What I'm saying is if you can't overcome someone trying to sell you something you so unimportant in life as a hifi you are disfunctional and should head to the nearest clinic for professional help.

regards,

dave

P.S. I agree impartiality should be the rule during a presentation but few seem to know how to do this whether they be flat earth or round earth salesmen.
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So everyone who falls for the bandwagon effect, needs therapy, well that is the whole voting US population at every election for a start.
 
quote

blackdog said:
Rob,

I didn't say the technique wasn't wrong. (To be honest, I don't hold much regard for most in the sales field period)

What I'm saying is if you can't overcome someone trying to sell you something you so unimportant in life as a hifi you are disfunctional and should head to the nearest clinic for professional help.

regards,

dave

P.S. I agree impartiality should be the rule during a presentation but few seem to know how to do this whether they be flat earth or round earth salesmen.
Click to expand...

when i used to work in retail at musical images covent garden we use to be very big stockists of linn and naim, every month the pupett use to come to show and tell us that we did not know how to sell,"insult# 1, then went on on a selling technic that no more tapping your feet first but start to hum to the music and to pretend that you were hearing things that the client did not , play back hum and tap your feet, i nearly picked him up and wanted to put him in the middle of covent garden square were all the clowns performed.
 
nando said:
when i used to work in retail at musical images covent garden we use to be very big stockists of linn and naim, every month the pupett use to come to show and tell us that we did not know how to sell,"insult# 1, then went on on a selling technic that no more tapping your feet first but start to hum to the music and to pretend that you were hearing things that the client did not , play back hum and tap your feet, i nearly picked him up and wanted to put him in the middle of covent garden square were all the clowns performed.
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I had one who praised a distributor who used to get people to march up and down listening to a recording of a military band playing Sousa's The Thunderer, and refused to let anyone play their own records. He said we should do the same.
 

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