Demagnetising LP's & cd's

bottleneck said:
Educating the consumer can ONLY be a good thing, in my view.
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How are you educating the consumer by telling him there are no difference, but his ears can hear them?

And what does this poor consumer use to *use* his expensive equipment, well what a surprise - his ears.
 
How can you tell me, a seasoned sailor that the earth is round.

I can see the edge, dammit!

I've used - what a suprise - my eyes.


:D
 
bottleneck said:
Hi Fnuckle

I can agree with this, in part.

One could draw (in your favour) a parallel with the motor car. You could say that you need know no more than to service the vehicle annually and fill it with petrol.. it would not stop somebody from buying a car.

Owning several thousand pounds would enable somebody to walk into a dealership and spend several thousand pounds on audio equipment. Perhaps as a 'trade member' you'd be in favour ;)



The parallel with the motor car fails in many ways.

Most notably, it's not an industry quite so enamored with the aforementioned 'snake-oil'. Motoring magazines when reviewing cars do not reccomend spending thousands of pounds on changing spark plugs in new vehicles.

Motor cars are (generally speaking) sufficiently well understood and sufficiently mass-market that advertisers and marketing speak very rarely falls into technically 'dodgy' territory.

I'm sure you would agree however that our industry is rife with unproven and untested claims.

I have reached my own conclusions in areas where I feel I have read enough, tried enough (and yes used my ears too) to make informed decisions.

I'm not asking anyone to agree with my assertions - in fact I really do not have an opinion on the thoughts of others.



In summary, I am trying to say -


Educating the consumer can ONLY be a good thing, in my view.



Life is hard, and the world is tough.
Those with money and little knowledge (and a wish to buy high-end hifi) walk into a lions den.
Click to expand...

I'd draw an analogy with mobile phones instead of cars. People walk into Crapfone Whorehouse and 'buy' and iPhone 4 on a contract. How many of them need to know what GSM, SIM or PAC stand for, but they need to know where to put their SIM card, and how to get their PAC (not 'PAC code'... the word 'code' is redundant) if they are switching networks.

They might get sold pointless insurance or pretty little phone protectors that are designed to break into a million shards when damaged, causing more scratches and problems to the phone than if it had been left denuded. They were probably misinformed by the sales person that the '4' in an Apple iPhone 4 stood for '4G', even though genuine 4G cellular systems are in beta test at this time.

As for silly foo... how about being sold an expensive case for your phone, because you keep it in your jeans pocket and the case will minimise the chances of you nuking the family jewels? How about a signal strength meter that is only sort of related to signal strength.

How many people are oversold a smartphone today, where all they use it for is phoning, txting and posting up happy slapping videos on YouTube? Surely all they need is educating, and they will happily give up their premium rate phone and its premium rate line rental and pick up any old Nokia.

Good luck with that.


But back to your car analogy. Have you actually seen a car advert?

Jaguar adverts - "Gamine girls want to have sex with me."
Ford/Vauxhall adverts - "The wife and I are ground down by work, kids and mortgage. This'll take the pain away for a while."
Mercedes adverts - "I'm rich, important and not bound by convention."
BMW adverts - "I'm hi-tech, but not nerdy."
Audi adverts - "I'm an engineer! Just like I wanted to be when I was five."
French car adverts - "I have sex with girls with crazy hair and short dresses."
Honda adverts - "I'm quirky, but corporate."
Toyota adverts - "Look at me, I'm saving the planet!"

...and so on.

What part of motoring marketing and advertising appeals to a rational buying decision made by someone with an understanding of automotive technology (Audi's engineerobabble aside)? Even back in the days when they used to talk technology, the accompanying image was usually of a woman in a mini dress stroking the gearstick suggestively.

As to modern motoring journalism, I have two words for you... Jeremy. Clarkson. The case rests.

Edit: What all of this comes to is this: Educating the consumer only works when the consumer desires to be educated. Educating them "for their own good" isn't really going to get you very far. Just ask my old French teacher.
 
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bottleneck said:
How can you tell me, a seasoned sailor that the earth is round.

I can see the edge, dammit!

I've used - what a suprise - my eyes.


:D
Click to expand...

Not enough and only from the deck it seems. If you climb to the top of the mast you can see a bit further, 'cause you can see further round the curvature then.

Seasoned sailors know that the horizon at sea is level and the same distance away in whatever direction you look. It moves around with you.

:)

JC
 
others use a compass to see further, but the sea is very unpredictable. that is why one must rely in his own instint,
nando.
 
Compass 'eh ? .... Hmmm, have you tried a demagnetiser on that to see whether it has any effect ?
 
bottleneck said:
How can you tell me, a seasoned sailor that the earth is round.
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Very, very seasoned then; in Europe the earth has been commonly known to be round since before the middle ages.

Pythagoras figured it out by looking at lunar eclipses. Aristotle by observing that further south, some constellations appeared higher up in the sky. By the middle ages everyone knew the earth was round.
 
Alan Brown said:
Rob, I am in no position to question these tests as they are beyond my experience and before my time (;) perhaps my young hearing isn't dulled)...but your response is surely telling.
Click to expand...

And so it should be - telling that us.

If someone tells me they've used a blind test to apparently prove a difference where all known indications point to that being impossible, I want to examine that test in detail before accepting the findings.

If I facilitate a blind test everyone is able to examine every aspect of it at will.
I even get the listeners to to select the music, push the buttons, set the volume atc, and my only role is to swap the kit and ensure the test remains blind.


Your expectation bias is equally strong, and evident in your post above. You - also based on previous experience - expect not to hear any difference - any difference referred to is placed on trial by you (with your expectation bias) and subjected to rigorous & adversarial cross-examination, which is enough to kill any sensitivity to music stone dead. Therefore you hear no difference.
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No so, and the comparison you make is invalid.
My expectation is driven by science - if two items are technically the same then I do not expect to hear a difference. That is a perfectly logical position to adopt and a world away from bias driven by hearsay, reviews, singing and dancing salesman, review, looks, price, reputation etc etc.

I also hear differences in blind tests.
I can however explain them and they are never attributable to unknown factors.
Hi-fi just isn't that complex, or demanding in terms of the technology, and our collective hearing is sufficiently unreliable that we do not require the level of care and analysis that some are suggesting.

You just play the damned bit of kit without the benefit of vision and/or someone providing a running commentary. If the difference disappears it didn't exist in the first place.
 
Fnuckle said:
I'd draw an analogy with mobile phones instead of cars. ...and then a lot of stuff that really doesn't go anywhere.
Click to expand...

Hi Fnuckle

I've been in the cellular industry for twenty years, and no, I don't believe the large multiples such as Carphone Warehouse operate in the way you've described.

CPW as an example here in 2010 do not pay their sales consultants commission - it is salary only. Other retail avenues for cellular sales are mostly industry owned, small independants have largely dissapeared.

It is genuinely a poor industry to parallel for your arguement. I would like to walk into sevenoaks and be provided with a free Arcam amplifier because I took a gas supply with them.

Unfortunately where your arguements really lack strength I feel - is your undisclosed 'trade' status.

You argue that end-users do not need educating, that shops can supply happy customers whom need no knowledge, but you do so with what on face value appears to be a vested interest in making money.

Of course your trade status may be unrelated, but at the moment it really detracts from me putting any store by your arguements.

My own opinion that the public 'should be educated to make informed decisions and that is a vital role that bulletin boards should try and help with' IS a selfless one - I make no money from the hifi industry in any way, shape or form. If I give advice it's because I have an interest in hifi and helping people.



*edit*
nothing personal here - text can provide a persona which is unmeant.
 
bottleneck said:
Hi Fnuckle

I've been in the cellular industry for twenty years, and no, I don't believe the large multiples such as Carphone Warehouse operate in the way you've described.

CPW as an example here in 2010 do not pay their sales consultants commission - it is salary only. Other retail avenues for cellular sales are mostly industry owned, small independants have largely dissapeared.

It is genuinely a poor industry to parallel for your arguement. I would like to walk into sevenoaks and be provided with a free Arcam amplifier because I took a gas supply with them.

Unfortunately where your arguements really lack strength I feel - is your undisclosed 'trade' status.

You argue that end-users do not need educating, that shops can supply happy customers whom need no knowledge, but you do so with what on face value appears to be a vested interest in making money.

Of course your trade status may be unrelated, but at the moment it really detracts from me putting any store by your arguements.

My own opinion that the public 'should be educated to make informed decisions and that is a vital role that bulletin boards should try and help with' IS a selfless one - I make no money from the hifi industry in any way, shape or form. If I give advice it's because I have an interest in hifi and helping people.



*edit*
nothing personal here - text can provide a persona which is unmeant.
Click to expand...
So how did you choose your present system?
 
bottleneck said:
Hi Fnuckle

I've been in the cellular industry for twenty years, and no, I don't believe the large multiples such as Carphone Warehouse operate in the way you've described.

CPW as an example here in 2010 do not pay their sales consultants commission - it is salary only. Other retail avenues for cellular sales are mostly industry owned, small independants have largely dissapeared.

It is genuinely a poor industry to parallel for your arguement. I would like to walk into sevenoaks and be provided with a free Arcam amplifier because I took a gas supply with them.

Unfortunately where your arguements really lack strength I feel - is your undisclosed 'trade' status.

You argue that end-users do not need educating, that shops can supply happy customers whom need no knowledge, but you do so with what on face value appears to be a vested interest in making money.

Of course your trade status may be unrelated, but at the moment it really detracts from me putting any store by your arguements.

My own opinion that the public 'should be educated to make informed decisions and that is a vital role that bulletin boards should try and help with' IS a selfless one - I make no money from the hifi industry in any way, shape or form. If I give advice it's because I have an interest in hifi and helping people.



*edit*
nothing personal here - text can provide a persona which is unmeant.
Click to expand...

As the one industry I have actually taken legal action against, forgive me if I take your claims about the sanctity of the mobile phone retailer with a barrel of salt. At least armed robbers have the good grace to signal their perfidious intent by waving a gun in your face.

That being said, they are still better than most hi-fi retailers. And at least mobile phone salespeople sell, instead of acting as some kind of combined bad smell redistribution service/sales avoidance officer.

You need to re-read what I said, instead of reacting to your perception of what you thought I said. I am not saying end-users do not need educating, I am saying the majority do not want to be educated. Big difference.

How much of your advice is thrown back in your face, because the person asking the question wants to hear an answer that reinforces their world view, not one that explains why their world-view is wrong? Especially as most people who buy hi-fi would consider your world-view as wrong, too. They might be wrong and you might be right, but if they lack - and have no intention of gaining - the skill-set required to get to the sort of right you want them to attain, aren't you just trying to removing the joy and passion from their hobby?

And that point stands, no matter who makes it.
 
Hi Dean... I just copied a large pair of TAD speakers.. copying an existing design - the best route to successfull audio DIY in my book ;)

.... the question is a little leading in honesty ... You imply that I have made the right choices. I have simply made choices. I am not saying they are right.

In my arguements I am not standing on a pedestal as the fount of technical knowledge - my peers stand above me. I just listen to them and ask a lot of questions..

I want to make decisions based on sound knowledge whenever possible. I may choose to buy snake-oil, I simply want to know what's in the bottle and what it will do to me.


Fnuckle - perhaps we are more in agreement than I thought.
Of course, there is mis-selling in cellular. Last time I checked, Ofcom receive about 1,000 complaints every month.

Hifi couldnt be much more different as you say. You only have to visit a forum such as this , pink fish or wigwam (or better still an audio event) to see how much it is the preserve of the super-rich, the super-weird and the super-eccentric.


When we lack the ability to self-criticise and learn from our mistakes, we are doomed to keep repeating them..
 

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