I have always had a yearning to own a DD turntable, of the Technics,Luxman,Micro Seiki and Pioneer variety.You know the kind nicely finished high end jap TT from the 70s and 80's .Its partly because I like the look and probably stems from looking at hifi mags when I couldnt afford anything. Anyway the question is if I were to take the plunge how good are they? Opinions differ and range from good to great ,does anyone have personal experience or recommendations or is their a modern equivalent.Which ones should you avoid because of parts issues etc. I have seen some Technic sl110 for sale but have no experience and reviews are difficult as there also seems to be a huge amounts of variants available. Anyone got 1st hand experience?
Direct Drive turntables
- Thread starter Colin2040
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SCIDB
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Hi Colin,
Direct drives have become more fashionable over the last few years. This is because they can offer excellent sound quality.
Technics developed the first ones (SP10) in the late 60s. It was the Technics SP10 MKII which gave them the lead. It became the standard for radio, broadcast and recording studios. They really made their name with the release of the SL1200 mkII in the late 70s.
Other japanesse companies soon bought out their versions of high decks.
Have a look at this sight for some info on direct drives.
http://de.geocities.com/bc1a69/index_eng.html
The high end deck had the best build and engineering but, on the whole, are less common. Most of the companies released cheaper direct drive decks. Some were good, some were poor.
They can give you a good solid stable sound. Making the music sound rock solid in pitch and stability.
Technics SP10MKII is aone to look at. There are many knocking around but prices have risen. You do need to build a plinth for it. Like a number of old equipment, parts may be scarce, but relability is very good.
There area number of people who use one so they may be along to talk their decks. I have an SP10MKII but need to get it up and running.
As a toe dipper, you could try a Technics SL1200 MKII. These are still for sale new because they have been dj standard decks. These decks can be modded to quite good effect.
SCIDB
Direct drives have become more fashionable over the last few years. This is because they can offer excellent sound quality.
Technics developed the first ones (SP10) in the late 60s. It was the Technics SP10 MKII which gave them the lead. It became the standard for radio, broadcast and recording studios. They really made their name with the release of the SL1200 mkII in the late 70s.
Other japanesse companies soon bought out their versions of high decks.
Have a look at this sight for some info on direct drives.
http://de.geocities.com/bc1a69/index_eng.html
The high end deck had the best build and engineering but, on the whole, are less common. Most of the companies released cheaper direct drive decks. Some were good, some were poor.
They can give you a good solid stable sound. Making the music sound rock solid in pitch and stability.
Technics SP10MKII is aone to look at. There are many knocking around but prices have risen. You do need to build a plinth for it. Like a number of old equipment, parts may be scarce, but relability is very good.
There area number of people who use one so they may be along to talk their decks. I have an SP10MKII but need to get it up and running.
As a toe dipper, you could try a Technics SL1200 MKII. These are still for sale new because they have been dj standard decks. These decks can be modded to quite good effect.
SCIDB
The sp10 is one I was looking at and I am happy enough to import from Japan if need be,I have plans for the plinth and someone who could easily make it.I even have access to lots of hardwoods so it wouldnt be an issue. Prices seem to have dropped recently ,probably in line with everything else .
RobHolt
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Good DD is superb but I'd suggest going in at the high end from the start.
As suggested above, look at the Technics SP range (10,25) for starters. The Micro Seiki decks were also excellent - look out for a DDX1000 or DDQ1000. I miss my DDX and should never have sold it.
The rung of decks that sit below those are ok, but nothing special IMO and by the time you've serviced and tweaked them with the myriad third party 'improvements', well you've probably spent as much as SP10/DDX.
As suggested above, look at the Technics SP range (10,25) for starters. The Micro Seiki decks were also excellent - look out for a DDX1000 or DDQ1000. I miss my DDX and should never have sold it.
The rung of decks that sit below those are ok, but nothing special IMO and by the time you've serviced and tweaked them with the myriad third party 'improvements', well you've probably spent as much as SP10/DDX.
RobHolt
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Apart from stuff like the incredibly expensive Brinkmann DD and one other, the name of which escapes me, 'new' DD is dead and therefore you aren't going to find specialist dealers.
The technics 1200 can be had from pro shops if you really want to buy one new. I wouldn't personally as there are still plenty of better vintage decks around that are in good condition. Most repairs are easy as it'll likely just be new capacitors and perhaps the odd resistor that has aged and gone off spec. The controller and servo ICs in some of these old decks are however long out of production, but unlikely to go bad.
The technics 1200 can be had from pro shops if you really want to buy one new. I wouldn't personally as there are still plenty of better vintage decks around that are in good condition. Most repairs are easy as it'll likely just be new capacitors and perhaps the odd resistor that has aged and gone off spec. The controller and servo ICs in some of these old decks are however long out of production, but unlikely to go bad.
I've a Denon (why didn't you mention Denon? 
- classic DDs!) DP-62L direct drive tt. Nothing wrong with the sound quality at all, and the arm seems well capable of taking a good mc cart.
Oh, and it looks just great!
Might even be up for sale soon, as I've recently done a swap deal and acquired a Nott Analague Interspace tt .... dunno, I'll see how it goes!
- classic DDs!) DP-62L direct drive tt. Nothing wrong with the sound quality at all, and the arm seems well capable of taking a good mc cart.Oh, and it looks just great!
Might even be up for sale soon, as I've recently done a swap deal and acquired a Nott Analague Interspace tt .... dunno, I'll see how it goes!
Robs words are wise re the cheaper DDs - they generally ain't as good as the top ones and you can spend a lot of money tweaking to address feelings of it not being quite right - buy a top notch one that is tatty (or even better a pristine one) and they can be quite a bargain - cosmetics can be cheaply improved if it turns out you like it but at least you are trying the full fat sound from the outset
I have an TEchnics SP10, Denon DP 6000 - once I decide which I prefer the other would be for sale but might take me a while to decide!!!
if you can make your own plinth then you won;t get a better sound for the money than an SP10 - seem to be around £600 for a decent one at the moment which for the engineering on offer is great value - Vantage Audio in somerset can refurb anything that goes wrong so its pretty risk free
rgds
darren
I have an TEchnics SP10, Denon DP 6000 - once I decide which I prefer the other would be for sale but might take me a while to decide!!!
if you can make your own plinth then you won;t get a better sound for the money than an SP10 - seem to be around £600 for a decent one at the moment which for the engineering on offer is great value - Vantage Audio in somerset can refurb anything that goes wrong so its pretty risk free
rgds
darren
there was a gorgeous luxman DD on ebay.. and i do mean gorgeous!!
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LUXMAN-PD131S...s=66:2|65:13|39:1|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LUXMAN-PD131S...s=66:2|65:13|39:1|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50
Yeah Iwas watching that one,but I need to do a bit of research first.My readings so far put the sp10 mk3 high up and I can get them at reasonable costs from the states and Japan,Pioneer have a few nice ones and Micro and I still need to review the Kenwoods and Denons.
I like the Luxman but they seem to have like the others a lot of variants.
I like the Luxman but they seem to have like the others a lot of variants.
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Colin
I've got an SP10MKII, it's been used with an Audio Origami refurbed DV505 and AO EPA-100. It replaced a Michell Syncro, other experience has been with that huge battleship Aiwa that was in HiFi world a few months ago.
I've heard a lot of other tt's in unfamiliar systems and I think it's fair to say that a properly implemented DD approach has some advantages, that off the shelf belt drive solutions can't match at similar prices. In the bass, the definition and weight are impressive, the absolute speed stability and somewhat metronomic timing is another key attribute.
On the downside (for a DD), I have found most belt drive decks to have a sense of 'air' or 'liveliness' that I haven't heard from a (My) DD, but this may be a massive generalissimo.
As I have indicated, I think a properly implemented design is key, and in this respect a good belt drive deck doesn't lose out. The Brinkman La Grange (just to pick one) is a great example of this.
Hence, when you are looking at decks, don't rule out the classic Mirco Seiki belt drive units. After the DDX-1000 Micro went on until the late 1980's building belt and DD units with unmatched build quality and levels of engineering which would put SME to shame. Eschewing the three point suspended approach they used mass, air bearings, suction pumps and different isolation approaches in their belt drives. I think these late belt drives may well be a better prospect than the earlier direct drive micros.
This is a source of info:
http://www.my-micro.de/
And here's a picture:
The SX-111FV Belt drive. This has a 10Kg platter, an air bearing and vacuum suction on the platter, sold by HiFi.do for only 180,00 yen!
On the DD side I would also say steer clear of the cheap ones, and go straight for 'upper mid'. The Denon DP80, the Victor (JVC) TT-801 and TT-101 are standalone motor units similar to the SP10MKII and of very high quality. Denon made a plinth for their units but it probably isn't as good as a very good DIY design could be. Don't be put off by the JVC link, Japan Victor Company made some great equipment (the Reiymo transport) and these units are fantastically engineered, (and like the denon, look like UFOs).
A TT101, look at the Vintage knob site for cut away graphics.
Victor TT-101
The Sony TTS-8000 is another option, but often very pricey for some reason. Again, this can be found as a standalone or with a choice of dedicated plinths.
Sony TTS-8000 motor unit
Upper mid still, look at the Marantz TT1000, bad reviews at the time but maybe some plinth treatment would help, looks great though doesn't it? Ask David Price of HFW, he may still have one of these.
Marantz TT1000, 'music link / esotec series'
And lets not forget the Technics SP10 MKI and II. I'd steer clear of the mark 1. The 2 has a better (separate) power supply and is a better deck. I believe the II is fundamentally better than the SP15 and SP25 which aimed to put the MKII package into a more user friendly and cheaper enclosure.
The MKII was sold seperately as a motor unit or with the purpose - built Obsidian plinth (SHB-3?). Further specialist plinths were made by Lead Console, SAEC and Technics. The Obsidian plinth is allegedly poor but I use it with different feet because it looks good and sounds fine to me. I will try different ones later. The SP10MKII's popularity can be part explained by the numbers available, from ex-broadcast units to studio use, many were sold around the world and are relatively easy to buy without going to Japan.
My TT with the EPA-100
Mine with DV-505
You mentioned luxman; look at the PD-444 DD unit and the PD-555 with the vacuum pump. These are so wide it isn't true, saw one recently overseas.
PD-555 with Vacuum Pump
I've got an SP10MKII, it's been used with an Audio Origami refurbed DV505 and AO EPA-100. It replaced a Michell Syncro, other experience has been with that huge battleship Aiwa that was in HiFi world a few months ago.
I've heard a lot of other tt's in unfamiliar systems and I think it's fair to say that a properly implemented DD approach has some advantages, that off the shelf belt drive solutions can't match at similar prices. In the bass, the definition and weight are impressive, the absolute speed stability and somewhat metronomic timing is another key attribute.
On the downside (for a DD), I have found most belt drive decks to have a sense of 'air' or 'liveliness' that I haven't heard from a (My) DD, but this may be a massive generalissimo.
As I have indicated, I think a properly implemented design is key, and in this respect a good belt drive deck doesn't lose out. The Brinkman La Grange (just to pick one) is a great example of this.
Hence, when you are looking at decks, don't rule out the classic Mirco Seiki belt drive units. After the DDX-1000 Micro went on until the late 1980's building belt and DD units with unmatched build quality and levels of engineering which would put SME to shame. Eschewing the three point suspended approach they used mass, air bearings, suction pumps and different isolation approaches in their belt drives. I think these late belt drives may well be a better prospect than the earlier direct drive micros.
This is a source of info:
http://www.my-micro.de/
And here's a picture:
The SX-111FV Belt drive. This has a 10Kg platter, an air bearing and vacuum suction on the platter, sold by HiFi.do for only 180,00 yen!
On the DD side I would also say steer clear of the cheap ones, and go straight for 'upper mid'. The Denon DP80, the Victor (JVC) TT-801 and TT-101 are standalone motor units similar to the SP10MKII and of very high quality. Denon made a plinth for their units but it probably isn't as good as a very good DIY design could be. Don't be put off by the JVC link, Japan Victor Company made some great equipment (the Reiymo transport) and these units are fantastically engineered, (and like the denon, look like UFOs).
A TT101, look at the Vintage knob site for cut away graphics.
Victor TT-101
The Sony TTS-8000 is another option, but often very pricey for some reason. Again, this can be found as a standalone or with a choice of dedicated plinths.
Sony TTS-8000 motor unit
Upper mid still, look at the Marantz TT1000, bad reviews at the time but maybe some plinth treatment would help, looks great though doesn't it? Ask David Price of HFW, he may still have one of these.
Marantz TT1000, 'music link / esotec series'
And lets not forget the Technics SP10 MKI and II. I'd steer clear of the mark 1. The 2 has a better (separate) power supply and is a better deck. I believe the II is fundamentally better than the SP15 and SP25 which aimed to put the MKII package into a more user friendly and cheaper enclosure.
The MKII was sold seperately as a motor unit or with the purpose - built Obsidian plinth (SHB-3?). Further specialist plinths were made by Lead Console, SAEC and Technics. The Obsidian plinth is allegedly poor but I use it with different feet because it looks good and sounds fine to me. I will try different ones later. The SP10MKII's popularity can be part explained by the numbers available, from ex-broadcast units to studio use, many were sold around the world and are relatively easy to buy without going to Japan.
My TT with the EPA-100
Mine with DV-505
You mentioned luxman; look at the PD-444 DD unit and the PD-555 with the vacuum pump. These are so wide it isn't true, saw one recently overseas.
PD-555 with Vacuum Pump
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Moving on to the higher end TT's we have the SP10MKIII, with a 10KG plinth and a new power supply (amongst other modifications). Vanishingly low levels of wow/flutter, rumble and a S/N ratio of 92Db really do tell you how good this is. Prices are much higher than the MKII and justifiably. The finish on the MK3 in stock form is more polished and brighter than the MK2 if you want to tell at a glance. The P/S also has the sloping front. Try wigwam for a couple of users:
http://www.hifiwigwam.com/view_topic.php?id=22884&forum_id=7
The Vintage knob page is at:
http://www.thevintageknob.org/TECHNICS/SPLINEUP/SP10MK3/SP10MK3.html
The Pioneer P3 and P3a are like hens teeth over here, the P3a had a S/N ratio of 95Db!!! Check out the 'Vintage Knob' page on this unit: The P3a is really the one, but at a price. I'd take a P3
www.vantageaudio.com
To summarise, why do it? I did it because it looked interesting, everyone else didn't have one and it delivered a bang for buck that I think would be impossible to get elsewhere at the price. The units offer you the flexibility to get a purpose built plinth made, look good and are generally very reliable. Dive in.
http://www.hifiwigwam.com/view_topic.php?id=22884&forum_id=7
The Vintage knob page is at:
http://www.thevintageknob.org/TECHNICS/SPLINEUP/SP10MK3/SP10MK3.html
The Pioneer P3 and P3a are like hens teeth over here, the P3a had a S/N ratio of 95Db!!! Check out the 'Vintage Knob' page on this unit: The P3a is really the one, but at a price. I'd take a P3
www.vantageaudio.com
To summarise, why do it? I did it because it looked interesting, everyone else didn't have one and it delivered a bang for buck that I think would be impossible to get elsewhere at the price. The units offer you the flexibility to get a purpose built plinth made, look good and are generally very reliable. Dive in.
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Sorry about the 3 posts, some info just doesn't seem to want to come up on the site. I'm missing some L07-D info.
Sources
Richard at Vantage Audio is a mine of information and he's worked on most of these units. He resurrected mine and knows a great deal about these and the associated electronics that come with them. A nicer chap you could not meet. Look at the website for pictures of all these units, including mine when the cracked plinth and unit was refurbished.
www.vantageaudio.com
HiFi.do for auctions
Sources
Richard at Vantage Audio is a mine of information and he's worked on most of these units. He resurrected mine and knows a great deal about these and the associated electronics that come with them. A nicer chap you could not meet. Look at the website for pictures of all these units, including mine when the cracked plinth and unit was refurbished.
www.vantageaudio.com
HiFi.do for auctions
Thanks for that,have been looking at Vantage Audio great web site.The reason I want to do it is.....I did it because it looked interesting, everyone else didn't have one and it delivered a bang for buck that I think would be impossible to get elsewhere at the price. The units offer you the flexibility to get a purpose built plinth made, look good and are generally very reliable. Dive in.""
There are some really interesting TT's out there and there are plenty of sources for plinth plans etc so thats what I may just go and do.
There are some really interesting TT's out there and there are plenty of sources for plinth plans etc so thats what I may just go and do.
I got a SL-1210 with a better than standard PSU a while back and stuck an RB250 (all O.L mods) on it to start with - Pretty good.
Have now gone on to a parallel tracking air arm with short carbon arm and found that to be leagues better.
I am awaiting a Pioneer PL-71 that I have heard good things about.
It might need some fixing up - all part of the fun.
Will try the standard arm first and see and then put the parallel tracker on and see.
One day a SP10 perhaps...
Have now gone on to a parallel tracking air arm with short carbon arm and found that to be leagues better.
I am awaiting a Pioneer PL-71 that I have heard good things about.
It might need some fixing up - all part of the fun.
Will try the standard arm first and see and then put the parallel tracker on and see.
One day a SP10 perhaps...
Pl-71
An here she is.
Sounds pretty amazing straight out of the box.
More character and cohesion to the sound than the Techi + parallel arm. The latter is very precise and clear cut. The Pioneer has more warmth and musical engagement somehow.
She did need new power and 33/45 changer micro switches as the originals had ceased to make good contact and gave an occasional wandering of rpm. Maplin to the rescue for £1.49 each. Apart from that all working perfectly - touch real wood
Next stop Sumiko headshell and if I every save enough perhaps a SPU?...
An here she is.
Sounds pretty amazing straight out of the box.
More character and cohesion to the sound than the Techi + parallel arm. The latter is very precise and clear cut. The Pioneer has more warmth and musical engagement somehow.
She did need new power and 33/45 changer micro switches as the originals had ceased to make good contact and gave an occasional wandering of rpm. Maplin to the rescue for £1.49 each. Apart from that all working perfectly - touch real wood
Next stop Sumiko headshell and if I every save enough perhaps a SPU?...
