DIY valve kit/set up for classical music

Hi all,

many years ago, i met a hifi guru who assured me that the best way to get musical bang for your buck was to build a valve amp.

I live in an old chapel which has great acoustics and when something comes on classic FM that i like, i crank the volume up on my ten year old boogie box and enjoy the music as it reverbs all around me.

today, Peer gynt suite #2 came on and as i listened to it, i realised that the time had come for me to build a bloody fanstastic system that will basically last me for many many years.

i am not an audiophile, but jsut love listening to great classical all day, and occasionally at great volume, (Ravell's Bolero being a great favourite to really crank up)

so with a budget of say £1,500 to include everything as i am starting with nothing but enthusiasm, what are your thoughts.

i would need a CD player, and i guess a radio (digital/fm?) too, as those would be my only sources of music.

i am fairly competant at DIY, so not worried about the building bit, but would prefer prebuilt speaker cabinets.

that's pretty much all my thoughts at the moment. budget could be stretched if there was good reason, or contracted if sensible.

may i thank you in advance for any thoughts on this serious matter!

stumbler

 

wow what a great thread - right up my street!

for a valve kit -

www.diyhifisupply.com
www.hificollective.co.uk
http://wduk.worldomain.net/

For a long time I've wanted to make valve kits (and sell them) I just don't feel the market for sub £600 kits is well catered for at all.

The best one I know of is the World Audio KEL84. At £500 though, this is about £150 more than it used to be a few years ago when it was sold through hifi world magazine.

Still, at that money it's still the best value one (that sounds good) that I know of.

For speakers - with a valve amplifier sensitivity is very important as you probably know.

Audionote J and E speakers would be a good match, but they are dear (well over your budget). The older Snell speakers are essentially the same thing, and can be had for a lot less.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Snell-Type-K-...14&_trkparms=72:1690|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318


I put my music on a computer, and then wirelessly (or wired if you want) transfer it to my hifi with one of these

http://www.slimdevices.com/pi_squeezebox.html

It also streams a huge number of internet radio stations too. It's all you need for less than £200, which not only is very cheap but also is much more conveniant than getting up and swapping discs everytime you want to play music... once they're on the PC, everything is at your fingertips.

Since I've had mine, I sold the CD player and have never looked back. I can't reccomend a CD player for that reason - I think they are obsolete (IMO).


On cables, interconnects, stands - I would simply get studio type cables (google Mogami, Starquad etc), and stands second hand from Ebay. Certainly at your budget there is little room for blowing money on fancy bits.

Hope this helps.

NB If you want new speakers (then obviously you'll get worse value for money), but baby audionote speakers are ok as a place to start -

(AX 1 and AX 2)

http://www.noteworthyaudio.co.uk/Loudspeakers1.html

 

system.....

Yes,what fascinating place to start.

I agree with most of the above......but not the cd thing.

I haven't got a problem putting a cd in a machine and how many do you want to play at a time anyway?

If it was me I'd be looking for deals on e-bay with some really good players coming on the market...with the shift to squeeze boxes. Thats up to you to decide though. The impression I have is that cd still has the edge on audio quality (especially a top player)...thoiugh I stand to be corrected. (CD won't dissapear overnight btw.(IMO))

I would use floorstanding speakers if you can.

Standmounters can be good. I have just received a pair of Castles which were a noticeable Improvement over my old Ruark Scepres. Choose speakers wisely!

If stand mounters...also choose stands wisely. IME the sturdier the better. I experimented a bit over the last couple of years and I have been astonished at the differenece varying designs make. One pair of flimsily made stand just went on the skip.

Amps..I too use a valve amp...and like it a lot. I feel sure if you follow up the recomendations you will like the result. If you have the funds you may like to experiment with different valves in time. (lS has a point regarding sensetivity of speakers and valve amps....but my Dynavox has no problems with the "new" Castłes.)

Speaker cables+i/cs? Experiment and see (hear) what you like! I personally think its worth making some investment here.

(I really envy you with the old chapel BTW!)

 

thanks for that, i'm slightly surprised that of my total budget you suggest i only spend about £500 on the amp.

i'd be interested to know if there is an advised ratio between cost of amp and speakers for instance. those snell on ebay are £400, i don't have a problem with buying second hand, that would leave £1,100, (£200 for squeeze box), £500 for amp, leaving £400 for the CD player i guess and a few wires.

i can see the music source discussion is subject to CD or not to CD. i suppose that would depend on how expensive a reasonable one is. i don't know what the audio comparison is between digital radio and a CD but one thing that does amaze me is just how clear and clean the sound on my little £100 Evoke2xt digital radio is.

what would be the next step up in the amp department. i only want to have to go through all this once! I've only had two cassette players and one CD boogiebox in 35 years of music listening!

thanks

 

sorry dave ....but the sb3 ...music server thing just has too many plusses imo !

all good advice ....


actually I think your an audiophile but don't know it yet !

be warned that a big open chapel will gobble up sound .....so I'd think about big efficient speakers as suggested ....

see if you can borrow some gear and see how it sounds in your listening area ...where are you ?

there may be a member who'd be willing to help you out .....

 

No worries.....horses for courses...

But your putting convenience in front of sonics...................!?

 

Not sure about the sonics bit David. As you say, horses for courses, but in a well implemented computer rig the computer is only doing Cd transport duties - the data gets pushed out to a dac. So the only conceivable difference is in the quality of the dac stage and here the world is your oyster.

Not ganging up or anything sinister, but a laptop, coupled to some usb drives with usb/firewire output to a quality dac can give an exceedingly good sound - and certainly not inferior to a cdp in any way.

Don't discount it as sonically inferior - it probably is the future. We shall all look forward to the great cdp vs computer debate taking over from the great vinyl vs digital debate!!

 

OK...may be

In my experience its usually best to employ a division of labour with stuff.

eg If you want an off roader to go anywhere off road I would buy a Land Rover which has been designed to do just that. Not a SUV which is designed for carrying the kids to school.

There are many such examples.


I woiuld leave computers to computing and cd players to playing cds.






What do YOU think thouigh Stumbler?

 

The floorstander point for a chapel is a point well made.

With a £1,500 budget, ''efficient'' floorstanders of high quality - and neutral in replay (important for classical I feel) is a hard task.

Take for example a real favourite of mine - Lowtha Acousta's (google them if you like). They sound fabulous with a real direct sound, that mates perfectly with a valve amp. ... but!.. in the quest for high efficiency, there is certainly 'colouration' here. I don't mind it - it's a question of what you throw the life-belt to with a limited budget..... but a large, efficient, tonally neutral speaker in an overall budget of £1,500... wow, hard to do.

DEFINATELY... you can get a CD source (SB or CD) for £200..

you can FOR SURE... get a 1/2 decent valve amp (either kit or used for £500-£600.

With just £700-£800 left, make the cables - ask zanash for advice here, I'm sure he can assist.. leaving the lion's share of that for speakers.... and for sure get a kit or used.

This is a nice pair of speakers by the way -

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Ruark-Talisma...14&_trkparms=72:1300|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318

RRP £800 - , but that's on the original sale price in the 90's. The latest version is nearer £2k. You'll get them around £200-£300 - and that's a lot for a little. They really have nice drive units and are well made....

Not as efficient as something like Audionote speakers though, so a used mid-efficiency speaker like this you'll need a more powerful valve amp to do it justice. EL34/6550/KT88 tubes in push/pull - 40-80 watts would do it. The DIY hifi supply 'ELLA' would get you there.

 

NB

I guess I'm trying to say, when you move away from 95db efficient PLUS speakers to something moderately efficient 89-93 - the choice becomes huge.

..... KEF reference speakers, Ruark Talismans, there are just loads of yesterday's high flyers for today's pocket money.


Oh, back on the trail of 'high efficiency' - call Kevin at Definitive Audio. He sometimes has Dali 105's or Living Voice Auditoriums (early ones) around the £700 mark.

These are much more efficient than KEF, RUark etc - and can be used with a SET valve amp even. I should have mentioned this one before - you just won't go wrong with them. Google ''Living Voice Avatar'' for reviews of this speakers big brother, it's very highly rated.

 

if I'm not saying much here, it's just because you're speaking Russian, and it'll take a me a while to zone in.

one thing that might settle the CD/noCD debate, would be the quality difference of the source material. ie is a CD played on a decent CD player a better source, than digital radio, or a digital download into your computer?

I'd be very interested to know the answer to that, but don't want to get too sidetracked on teh CD issue, after all, if i can buy a half decent one for £200, then it's not really a big issue. the fact is i don't have a big CD collection so i have no investment there to worry about.

personally, i think that ultimately CDs are the past, they take up so much room and are corruptable. apparently i heard that the chemicals in them will degrade over a few decades, in which case, many people may find their collections unplayable. i think i'd prefer to go cyber digital if it doesn't negate the investment I'll be making in the amp and speakers.

keep your thoughts coming, though, i am learning more as you post.

one thing that I am getting though, is that it would appear to be more important to make the 'big' initial investment in the speakers, rather than the amp? is that correct?

thanks

 

I have a copy of Vivaldi's "Four Seasons" which I remember playing when I first got a cd player in 1994, so therefore 15 years old (at least). Its still played regularly and sounds fine....very good actually.




one thing that I am getting though, is that it would appear to be more important to make the 'big' initial investment in the speakers, rather than the amp? is that correct?


..If it was me I'd fit the speakers aroiund the amp.

Sort the amp out first then you know what figures you are dealing with....and can change speakers to suit the character of the amp (+front end) a bit. Anyone else?

 

well yes, the driving capability of the amp you have will dictate the speakers in my view.

the speakers may or may not have the ability to drive a room.... etc.

I'm thinking big chapel = big speakers
big speakers = high efficiency and a low power SET type amp, or
big speakers = moderately efficient, more powerful valve amp.


cd player

or

squeezebox (or equivalent - there are many)
big 500GB drive for the pc (will store a big record collection.


Stumbler - I agree with where you are getting at... if you store music as very very low bit rate MP3 players, you are crippling your PC source somewhat.

From my own experimentation higher quality MP3 recordings sound the same as the original CD when I compare both from the same source. With your own CD's, you may aswell rip them losslessly these days - 1/2 terrabyte or 1 terrabyte drives are so very cheap.

On degradation, of course hard drives can corrupt too. I try to counter that by having an off-board hard drive, which I use as a back-up, as well as the original CD's of course, being yet another back-up.

You are right not to spend too much time on this element of the decision.


NB - here is another DIY speaker, a carpenter could make them for you quite cheaply.

Reccomended to me by Gary of Border Patrol, no less ( someone who's opinion it is wise to heed on high efficiency/valve solutions IME)

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0600/super12.htm

They are a pretty simple design, and with a 12" bass cone are high efficiency and room filling. A reccomended start then.

With a 97db 8 ohm load like these, you can get away with a SET amp.

Incidentally, as a rough rule of thumb I personally prefer single ended amps, it's just that most speakers are too hard for them to drive properly, causing muddy sounding bass.

I'm going to let someone else have their say now, I'm gabbing on too much!

 

wow, that's a great review to read on the Hammer Dynamics Super 12 speakers. certainly clarifies a ton of stuff for newbies like myself.
so, perhaps, if everyone agrees, we could say 'yes' to these Super 12 speakers. i'd prefer to buy new than second-hand, and the price is within budget at about £500 new and cabinetless.
so now, what are my amp options? is the KEL84 a clear winner with these speakers?

thanks, i'm picking things up slowly but surely...

 

There is no one answer here stumbler; it got to be your ears that are going to decide at the end of the day.

Remeber that this some thing of a "black art".

Are you sure?

Loads better value 2nd hand.

All my stuff is 2nd hand.

You want to try learning Polish if you think hifi is bad....

 

Yesh dem (phonetic!)

 

my only quibble with second hand is simply that, i only want to have to go through all this once,and don't want to discover that my speaker cone or some other component starts breaking up after a couple years. perhaps this is not a big deal, i don't know, would rather avoid it if it is though.
however, if everyone assures me that fixing these things is small in comparison to buying them in the first place, then i'm open to suggestions and recommendations.

perhaps over the next year, there will be amazing second hand bargains to be had, as some folks downsize their collections.

but that approach means waiting till a certified bargain amp or speakers came along, and then buying the matching amp or speakers to work with it. unfortunately, although this is the approach i take with everything i know about, I don't know diddly about audio-reproduction, so this is not so easy for to achieve, thus buying new has an advantage for me.

this thread is all about planning though and reinforcing or removing my pre-existing ideas to get something great that works, and i am very grateful for the help received so far.

dozabachenya poosniyeh

stumbler

 

Ja jestam = I am

To jest = it is (I think!)



rusty after a week...........OMG!!!!

 

I wrote a really long answer and then deleted it by mistake

Essentially cutting it short, I wanted to say that with 97db efficient speakers like those you can get away with a low power SET amp which (IMO and other things being equal) is sonically better than push-pull like a KEL 84.

Google diyhifisupply's lady day 300b amps
hificollective's glasshouse 300b

I use the 2nd, which is a great amp.

I simply wouldnt reccomend a SET amp into something less efficient - but if you're buying Hammer's - why not?


Thats all I was going to chip in.

I do think you should get more opinions though..

Try putting a thread in the main hifi section of the forum on DIY valve amp and speaker combinations. It gets bigger readership....



You could even ask the same question on hifi wigwam or pink fish media to get a broader feel for answers.


Just a thought.

 

Yes its being a bit slow here just now, for some reason.

I would follow up BN's ideas.




I wrote a really long answer and then deleted it by mistake


...,been there, done that.