End of cable debate - snake oil

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi and General Audio' started by anon_bb, Dec 11, 2007.

  1. anon_bb

    anon_bb Honey Badger

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    Apparently Fremer has taken up James Randis $1M challenge - hopefully the results of this should put an end to the debate.
     
    anon_bb, Dec 11, 2007
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  2. anon_bb

    Dom_ --->

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    It won't whoever wins the other party will argue the results and manipulate them.
    That is if they even come up with a testing regime between themselves. I don't think they will.
     
    Dom_, Dec 11, 2007
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  3. anon_bb

    Shiner

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    Randi is rigourous enough to ensure an independant third party is is involved to do the testing and results. That is part of any sensible test protocol.
     
    Shiner, Dec 11, 2007
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  4. anon_bb

    tones compulsive cantater

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    I hope it goes ahead. If Michael Fremer does demonstrate that he can really hear a difference, it naturally won't affect the fact that I can't and I therefore won't be buying expensive cables to hear the differences that I can't hear. The fact that I now know that they're actually there won't help me hear them!

    However, it will mean that there is indeed a physical phenomenon that is worth investigating and quantifying, and perhaps all the rubbish produced by the cable vendors will be replaced by scientific fact. The absence of scientific fact allows codswallop to breed. A definite result - one way or the other - would perhaps finish this off - I hope...
     
    tones, Dec 11, 2007
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  5. anon_bb

    grivois

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    The Charming Mr. Fremer

    This is Randi's challenge using cables that have similar LCR characteristics:

    …to significantly differentiate between a set of $7,250 Pear Anjou cables and a good set of Monster cables, or between a set of $43,000 Transparent Opus MM SC cables and the same Monster cables – your choice of these two possible scenarios… This would have to be done to a statistically significant degree, that degree to be decided.

    But now the snake-oil charmer is trying to wriggle out by changing the parameters.
     
    grivois, Dec 11, 2007
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  6. anon_bb

    dcathro

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    This is really old news, and the whole thing was called off months ago. If you care to read into it, it was Randi who changed things on the fly!
     
    dcathro, Dec 11, 2007
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  7. anon_bb

    bottleneck talks a load of rubbish

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    That's not the way I read it David - according to that article, M. Fremer wanted to use an alternative cable to the ones specified in the test, and J.Randi said no.

    There is some flim flam about whether M.Fremer needs to buy the agreed cable or whether it will be supplied, but this is just clouding the issue.

    Further down I note that M.Fremer agrees to continue with the test, despite the breakdown in communication.

    It's a shame the test didn't happen. I would love to see a selection of magazine writers take the test personally, although I don't need to see it happen to be able to predict the results.
     
    bottleneck, Dec 11, 2007
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  8. anon_bb

    grivois

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    But after Mr. Fremer agreed to continue with the test using Pear, Pear Cable precipitously withdrew...
     
    grivois, Dec 11, 2007
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  9. anon_bb

    bottleneck talks a load of rubbish

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    I didn't see that.. should have read further.

    I can't blame 'Pear Cables'. Why should they take the risk that their product may be publically de-bunked?

    Even if they weren't the risk/reward ratio is pretty slim IMO.

    It has to be said, M.Fremer's language on that site is appaling (if that is indeed him).
     
    bottleneck, Dec 11, 2007
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  10. anon_bb

    anon_bb Honey Badger

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    I suspect every other cable manufacturer would also decline - as they know full well there is no difference
     
    anon_bb, Dec 11, 2007
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  11. anon_bb

    grivois

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    I searched for "cable challenge" on Rudi's site, which hit the latest news.

    It seems this behaviour is synonymous with snake oil...
     
    grivois, Dec 11, 2007
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  12. anon_bb

    murray johnson

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    And who could blame them in the face of this kind of scientific rigour?

    "Oh yes, that can be done, there's no question about that," answered Randi. "I can picture all kinds of scenarios where things can be implanted in a cable that could give out a signal, it can even give out a tone, a pulse of some kind that can be picked up easily on an earpiece, or by any means, even by a meter in your hand. I'm magician by trade, I know how these things are done."


    James Randi..............Magician.
     
    murray johnson, Dec 11, 2007
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  13. anon_bb

    ADPully

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    A fair DBT would be definative evidence for me but have any fair and definative tests representative of real listening actually been conducted?

    has someone got an MO of a specific DBT?

    Andy
     
    ADPully, Dec 11, 2007
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  14. anon_bb

    Paul Ranson

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    I don't understand your objection. It's clear that cables can be fabricated that can be told apart by ear or otherwise. It's also clear that hearing such cables wouldn't be a test of the Fremer et al claim.

    Paul
     
    Paul Ranson, Dec 11, 2007
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  15. anon_bb

    TonyL Club Krautrock Plinque

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    Whilst Fremer's tantrums are very silly indeed and do no one any favours it would certainly appear that the $1m stake is an illusion.

    Tony.
     
    TonyL, Dec 11, 2007
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  16. anon_bb

    Paul Ranson

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    The $1m is real.

    But it is unwinnable because the challenge is to demonstrate something that, by definition, isn't there. Divining, clairvoyance, Shakti Stones, electrically equivalent items of hifi sounding different.

    Fremer along with many other 'audiophiles' believe in a supernatural effect. Why they are so reluctant to simply accept this is a mystery.

    Paul
     
    Paul Ranson, Dec 11, 2007
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  17. anon_bb

    TonyL Club Krautrock Plinque

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    As I understand it Fremer accepted the challenge, the rules were then subtly changed and tantrums ensued to the extent one of the cable manufacturers refused to have their product in the playing field. Fremer suggested another cable and then the $1m vanished in a puff of smoke vanished from the table replaced no doubt with a white rabbit in a top-hat. Fremer’s hissy-fit was most unfortunate and it makes him look like a fool, but the bottom line is he called Rhandi’s bluff and Rhandi caved. That’s how I read it anyway.

    Tony.
     
    TonyL, Dec 11, 2007
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  18. anon_bb

    anon_bb Honey Badger

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    Thats fremers POV - hes just setting up a straw man for the benefit of the cable industry he "supports" so he can defuse the situation created by randi but without being subjected to the scrutiny of the test.

    The only bluff here is fremers
     
    anon_bb, Dec 11, 2007
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  19. anon_bb

    Paul Ranson

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    Why is it so difficult for a cable believer to actually show that their experience is real? There's always a complication. Take Randi out of the equation, surely it's in Pear's interest to team up with an industry big name and demonstrate that their business is built on granite? The result goes into JAES and everybody's very happy.

    The weaselling and bickering really doesn't lend much support to the cable assertions.

    Paul
     
    Paul Ranson, Dec 11, 2007
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  20. anon_bb

    tones compulsive cantater

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    tones, Dec 11, 2007
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